play testing the new rules

[martin goddard]

Excellent and thoughtful feedback Duncan. Very useful to all play testers.

Very useful to all.

Do you think the pirates should outnumber the defenders in ships?

Several players have stated that they think the attackers should outnumber the defenders. They have made the same point as you Duncan. So there maybe something to it.

They agree with you  that the attackers should have more warships than the combined total of defender's merchant and war  ships.
Maybe they have a point.  Not tried it out.

Did you mean in numbers of warships, or total number of ships.

This would mean that a defender with 2 medium merchants ships and 2 small warships would be opposed by an attacker with 5 warships ( say 2 medium and 3 small) ?  Maybe we could try this on weds at Dorchester club. I don't mind being the attackers if that helps?

[Duncan]

I am not familiar enough with the history to know how pirates operated s I do not know. But I get the impression that they probably would not attack a large convoy with well armed ships able to come to each others aid and even less so if some of those ships were warships?
Also I know some pirates operated as pairs, but in the main were they not independent and I have not heard of any running in effect what is a whole fleet or squadron at least not having them in one place at one time.
That aside I don't mind from a game perspective as it is a fun game!
As it happens I was thinking of overall ships as I thin! I have been using them all pretty much in mutual supporting firing arcs although obviously it is the warships that do the majority of the moving and attacking, the merchants have to be supportive and not just I'm alright sod the rest of you!
I just think maybe the emphasis needs to change. The game should be more about Governments and large companies stopping pirates as opposed to the pirates tracking and attacking merchant ships. At least if you want to play that type of game like we did last night. There is nothing stopping us having several scenarios where one is that type of game and another is two or one pirate ship just chasing one or two merchants. If the balance is right then both scenarios could use the same game mechanics, just that the expected outcome should be different.
For example, in a game where the (current) defender has more ships including well rmec warships in convoy mode then it is as though the pirates have either bitten more than they can chew or have been taken by surprise. The condition for winning should more reflect the pirates escaping with their ships and crew intact rather than on how many merchants they capture.
For another example if the pirate has two ships and there are simply two merchants then the victory conditions should reflect the merchants escaping off the end instead.
They are two very different situations with different victory conditions, but played using the same game mechanics.
That would mean that the attacker is not always going to be the pirates and the defender is not always going to be the merchants. In fact I think I would move away from calling them merchants as a side and opt instead for State, Navy, Company; something less automatically defensive as quite clearly they are not always defending even if they are supposed to be.

[Colonel Kilgore]

Is there not an angle (possibly historical?) here to see Pirates operating on the fringes of a larger "convoy" and picking off the slower ones? The rest of the prey may run away and be thankful, or else turn on the pirates and give them a bloody nose?

[Leslie BT]

Stewart can you tell us what your using at present?
So for the current point in play testing  what do you currently use, I know that this will constantly change and some things will disappear, reappear, and disappear again.

So as of today, a set of play testing rules,
How many ships for the defender, maximum.
How many ships for the pirates, maximum.
A hex cloth.
The markers as described elsewhere.
Scenery?
Anything else?

[Stewart 46A]

Morning Les, at the moment max 4 attacker and 5 defender but sizes  can change depending on what you win/lose at the start. We haven't really tried scenery yet as we are still playing around with force lists and sailing/shooting/fighting.
What is set in stone, 100mm hex grid on a 5x3 mat (or there will be a lot of unhappy gamers that have paid for such a mat).

[Colonel Kilgore]

100mm hex grid on a 5x3 mat (or there will be a lot of unhappy gamers that have paid for such a mat).

Quite right!

Very much looking forward to receiving mine over the summer, and many thanks for collating the orders, Stewart.

[Leslie BT]

No I know it is still all things done at risk.

Next years Fisticuffs bring and buy could be swamped with blue hex marked cloths.

Just trying to get an idea of what to get finished to start play testing.

[martin goddard]

Stewart has suggested i do some  short videos about the game. Just for play tester consumption

Seems a good idea. Will try to get to it!

[Leslie BT]

That sounds like an excellent idea.

Can you add Ralph to the plat testers list?

[martin goddard]

With pleasure!

[Colonel Kilgore]

Stewart, thanks for the clarifications on the ships. What about the land-based game, or has that seen rather less testing down in Weymouth?

[martin goddard]

To help illuminate some of this discussion.
Here are some of my design criteria. Or "vision".
It might help us with the rules development.


1. The defender needs to be more than just  a moving target for the attacker's enjoyment.
2. The game needs to be historically based.
3. There needs to be enough ships, so that the loss of one ship is not a game decider. But not so many as to slow gameplay.
4. The rules will not model some of the common pirate actions. So (at the moment) no cutting out operations on stationary fleets, no night attacks, no longboats seizing ships.  Pirates will model the common situation of pirates chewing of bits off convoys etc.
5."Trivial"(what is trivial?) issues need to be ignored. So no account is made of small bits of treasure (two bracelets of fine gold), special effects (the bosun is dead).
6. Nothing from Disney films (Hook, Depp, Bluebeard etc). In fact Disney films give a good list of what not to include.  Black sails good though.
7. Land raids...later I think. To see whether they are an alternative game within the rules, or part of a greater game.


The forces are a little large at the moment . Ideally 2 pirate ships versus 3 merchants and a warship. But is that enough for an evenings game?


Some folk are seeing pirates as a conventional PP (is there such a thing?) attack/defence game.
It is not.
PP has never made games with two equal sides "bashing it our for no purpose other than bloodshed".  There are loads of games like that , so that audience is very well catered for. Such games tend to just give move/fight/shoot with no pre-game or aims. A bit lazy.
No need for PP to go down that path. It will certainly not be two equivalent/equal forces beating each other to death for no purpose.

Instead, it is based on two force with completely different ( sometimes called "asymmetrical", but that is a bit pompous)aims and  objectives.
The merchants should win if they get their ships away. The pirates should win if they capture merchant ships. The amount of success can be variable depending on how well the aim is achieved.
The pirates do not need to wipe out or capture the whole defender's force.
No pirates ever fought sea battles for the sake of it. That would be just silly and certainly not historical.

Thanks for thinking about all this stuff.
This should get some chat going?

[Colonel Kilgore]

Martin,

Thank you - that is very useful.

Indeed, you might like to include a version of this as explicit "design notes" within the rules themselves - I realise that there is an element there already, but these notes go somewhat further?

[martin goddard]

Yes Simon i  will put some in for clarity. Useful comment.

[Duncan]

Although in my earlier comments I stated it seemed that the game last Friday was more of a small naval engagement than a pirate action, I feel given some of the following comments that I should clarify that I did and do enjoy that type of game. I just thought that it was different to how your game was described as being small a couple of ships each sort of thing pirates attacking underarmed merchants. Hopefully though there will be scope for both sizes and scenarios in the finished rules.