German half tracks with turrets

[martin goddard]

The Germans seem to have put all sorts of obsolete turrets onto the hannomag and demag half tracks.
https://www.wanamakerhobbies.com/1-72nd-en/german-sd.kfz-251-ausf-d-with-hotchkiss-turret/

With French R35 Turret= light tank
With PZ I Turret=  MG tank
With 75mm PAK 40 = assault gun
With T34 turret = mock up only, none used.
With 222 type AC turret= MG  AC
With remote controlled turret= MG tank
With short 75mm  =Stummel assault gun
With Zwilling AA mount= AA on half track

These would all look good on the game table I think

martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

One problem is you have made the AA turret a non starter in the rules !
Cost a lot of points but would never archive its potential! Seemingly!
Unless you have sorted it out for this set of rules !
I ve always wanted to model the Canadian Skink AA tank, but with the rules as they were it's not worth making it ?
The Hanomag with a Pak 40 could be converted using the bits you make ?
Miles

[martin goddard]

Let me see if I can be helpful here Miles.

If you wanted the German AA zwilling with a turret on a half track.
Average
Armour 4   cost 8
Gun 4(cost)  cost 12
Total cost 20.

Skink AA tank
Armour 7  =14
Gun 4(cost)  cost 12
Total cost 26

Compared to a German LMG cost 14 that is good value I think?
AA has greater effect and mobility than a German LMG accompanied by a rifle base .

Of course, AA in PBI can never fulfil its proper job of shooting down aircraft. There are no aircraft in PBI.

You have the latest set of rules so will have to decide whether they are sorted or not?
Do you believe that the cost of 20 (half track turret) and 26 (tank) are expensive Miles?
What were you expecting to pay?

If I use them I think they will be very good indeed
Much better than MMG (4 shots and re-roll).
Luckily they are an option Miles and rarely used by infantry companies.

I can field some AA at the 14th December PBI day. I have the a pair of kugel blitz models that I can bring along. I will take your comments on board and try them out. You may be right. It will be interesting to see how they do.
23 points per model. 46 the pair of Kugelblitz's.


Hope that helps a bit.

martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

So what I mean is Skink has 4 x 20 mm Poleston canons. I would expect them to be more effective than an LMG/MMG ?
Obviously not a tank Killer in any way.
I know the Allies used AA guns to subdue the enemy position and fire supports.
Even using captured German AA 20mm and 37mm guns as well.
I am assuming it's the seemingly amount of Bullets flying at you, makes you Duck ?
It's trying to create that effect without it being so deadly it's a game changer ?
But anyway it's getting the right degree of "firepower/to expected results" that suit the rules gameplay and game being used ?
It's always a compromise buts that Wargaming for you !
Miles

[John Watson]

I can't remember from the 2025 rules but I assume that all AA guns are generic, like in the old set. So it doesn't matter whether there is a single barrel or multiple barrels the cost and the effect is the same.
John

[martin goddard]

AA is very generic. Deliberately.
If players want their AA to be better than in the rules, just pay for two AA vehicles and keep them in the same square. That gives you 4 shots each with a re-roll.

Against a crowded (4 base) square that will give 32 D6 this gets a re-roll too.
That would be for a pair of 20 point vehicles.  ie 40 points.


To carry on the discussion I need players to look at the 32D6 with re-roll for 40 points.

Do you think that the cost of 40 should be lower or the 32D6 should be increased?

I feel that(or a similar) question needs to be answered rather than a  "it ain't right but I have no idea how it should be?" type discussion. That would be good fun, but fruitless?

If we give the skink pair 50D6 that would give the effect I think you wanted?
Maybe it should cost more for that ability Miles?


martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

Why are you going with Silly numbers again. When I actually put that what we might want and what we get are two different things ?
WHY DONT PEOPLE READ WHAT I PUT?
I just put what you read in History books, what these things were used for and what reasons ! And you come up with silly numbers !
Sorry did I mention the British Army again oooops silly me. We stopped fighting after we fled the beaches at Dunkirk or something! ( sorry I have a lot of books on British regiments)
I haven't got round to reading about the all world beating Americans yet.
So back to reality I was just saying the seemingly amount of bullets and 20-37-40mm bullets coming out At you ! It's trying to represent this on a battlefield "without being war winning" ( I did put that in the last one !)
All I can imagine that a number of shells/bullets these things can pump out would have a devastating effect on how you would "walk" about on a battlefield, the sur-pressing capability must have been awesome!
It makes it very hard to have a discussion when people only read what the think is there ? And not actually what is written down?
Yes I know there has to be a balance in what happens and reality? And what can be archived on the table ? I wrote that down too !
All I am trying to get is the SENSIBLE thinking behind why 20-37-40mm bullets in the game are seemingly made into .3 inch to .5inch bullet effects ? Whether it's 1 or 4 barrels ?
Yes there has to be a compromise I wrote that before too we know that ?
You asked why AA guns aren't represented on the PBI battlefield ? I think with your above answer with  the silly numbers is the Answer?
Instead of the Sensible thinking and reality of including them in the game ?
Miles

[martin goddard]

OK Miles point taken

Please give what you think the points cost and effect should be.
Then we will have some numbers to look at.



martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

I don't know and can't answer that one. Not quickly.
Now my one experience of seeing a 30mm going off was a live fire demonstration at a Range near to the Wash with a A10 flying and firing. It was truly Awesome.
I know it's a Gatling gun, so a lot more bullets come out at a very fast rate.
So that's how I equate and imagine how that a 4 barrelled AA cannon weapon would fire and feel ?
20-30mm is a small calibre compared to a normal tank gun, fact. So its destructive power will be less effective fact. But its capabilities of putting a lot of shells into an area at once is enormous that's a fact.
So it's the Suppressing value and destructive values on lightly covered/armour objects? I think we can safely same say "proper" tanks and Buildings wouldn't be effected ? Suppressed maybe ?
Problem how to recreate that without making it war winning ? But at the same time being slightly better than either a pair of (L-M)MG bases in the next Square ? Or an Armoured Car ? 
So if you can get the right balance that would you make people want to model an AA gun and put it on the table.
Making feel powerful for what it is without destroying everything on the table ?
You have done that with the HE, flamethrowers, and A/cars !
Like I said at the beginning I would love to put a model of a Canadian Skink tank, ( An Airfix magazine article back in the late 70's) but I am not spending 6-9 man hours on  making a turret and tank for a vehicle that's not much better than an MG bases seemingly?
This isn't the only AA vehicle this is one I ve always wanted to do ! There are a few others, including the multiple barrelled German 20mm vehicles and there are quite a few good ones out there to make. Including the Hanomag and the ones on the backs of SDKFz 7's tractor vehicles.
What ever is done it will always be a compromise? It has to feel right on the table and game you are playing ?
Maybe hits on 5 and 6's ? Without the penetration values ? Auto Pins with certain results ? Firing as if you are firing into a crowded square ? Something on that lines ? Without throwing the score percentages off the scales ?
You know percentage values better than most of us ?
We know against most tanks it's going to be useless.
It's infantry/Guns, Actual Squares(Suppressing) A/cars and light vehicles it's going to effect ?
Miles

[John Watson]

I think we can all find things in PBI (all editions) that are compromises to enable the game not to get bogged down in detail. As a result some areas of the game are generic, so that the game does not get over complicated with detail. If you want that go play any of the number of excellent WW2 rulesets I have seen in the past (Flames of War, Battlegroup, Blitzkrieg Commander, Bolt Action etc). However many of these I have seen set up at the wargames club, played all day and come to no conclusion due to their overcomplication.
Yes I have pet issues with the army lists. I want smgs for my Finns and no Vickers medium tanks for my Greeks. I'd also like bunker busting tanks against the Japanese. I'd also like tanks to have accurate representation of their secondary weapons (some tanks had no mags, others had two or even three) but these have benn sacrificed to the god of playability. So I see no problem with generic AA. In fact I have never played against anyone who used AA.
John

[martin goddard]

OK Miles
If I read it correct .
I will put your thoughts into numbers so that we can discuss it.

Hitting on 5,6. This is the same as doubling the number of D6 needing 6 to hit.
In the same way a 4,5,6 would be the same as tripling the number of D6 that would need 6.

Probably best to work backwards here.
i.e decide what result you  want and then create the number of D6 to create that.


e.g. If I want a shooter to achieve 1 hit we give 6D6 to shooting.
If I want a shooter to achieve 2 hits we give 12D6 to shooting.  etc.

I need to know what sort of hit rate you think we are seeking.

An LMG at a crowded square gets 4D6 per shot. This  gives 0.7  of a hit.
An HMG at a crowded square gets 4D6 per shot with a re-roll. This gives 0.9 (roughly) of a hit.
If AA wants 1 hit per shot it will need 6D6 per shot.
If AA wants 1.5 hits per shot it will need 9D6 per shot.
If AA wants 2 hits per shot it will need 12D6 per shot
If AA wants 3 hits per shot it will need 18D6.  etc.

First decision for you Miles is this.
LMG =0.7 per shot, how many hits per shot should AA get?
When that is chosen, then I can work backwards and tell you how many D6 are needed per shot to create that hit rate.

The other option is to make saves different against AA, than against other shooting weapons. This would be complicated though. If you make the save worse it can be created by adding more shooting D6.
e.g If the AA save needs to be  half as good as normal then this can instead be created by keeping the save the same but doubling the number of shoot D6.

I appreciate that this seems tricky, but if you say what number of hits you want from each shot then I can engineer  some numbers. That is very easy.

Another option is to make AA have the same effect as a flamethrower, but at range.
ie 10D6 per shot.
Only 1 shot allowed.
Flamer hit saves are normally reduced to 5,6 (no cover benefit) in stead of the usual 2,3,4,5,6.( taking cover on partial or in buildings/wood).  This makes death 4x more likely. This would use 40D6 per shot. With normal saves. It also could use the 1 and 6 flamer rule?

A further option is to treat it as an off table HE. Using 1 or 2 squares.
That would give an auto pin and 4D6 against each base and against each tank/vehicle. Could be  dangerous (very erratic deliberately) for opponents with 2 or 3 tanks in a square. Roll of 1 = dead tank. Roll 4D6= 1/6 x4=66% chance of hit and 10% (1 i 10) chance of kill.  or 1/3 chance of a  dead tank  if 3 tanks.

Others, do feel welcome to express your thoughts too.
I can then show some possible solutions.

If any of the above needs more explanation, no problem

Here is what I think needs answering Miles et al.
1.How many hits per shot do we want (see above)?
2.is Off table HE effect a better choice?
3.is Flamer effect a better choice?
4. Something else?

martin

[martin goddard]

Whatever the outcome, I will bring a  pair of German AA tanks (Peter Pig kugelblitz) and see how they get along. We can see how it goes.

My only problem is that the model is made with the guns up  and not horizontal. This means I will need each model to be based on a 40' slope in order to get the right elevation?


martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

I was only thinking aloud on what may or maybe the end results. The following is only suggestions/thoughts ?
Yes AA could/should be its own category? It would be a Generic name ? ( M15 with MGs and a 37mm would be treated as an AA gun not multiple guns ? .50 cal upto 40mm(Bofors). Smaller Calibras usually have more than one barrel? Anything bigger would be classed as guns ? Otherwise it gets complicated and messy with example 88mm firing 12 rounds per minute?
What makes an AA gun separate from the rest is its High rate of fire ? Against a normal auto-cannon?
It's not anti armour ? So its targets would be Men/Guns, Light vehicles and Soft skins, maybe A/Cars ? Or is that too far ? Squares, with something in it ? To be able to Suppress that Square ? Maybe similar to a mortar mechanism?
Obviously if in a game you have a "house rule" of Aircraft in the game would be able to engage them too ?
I am only thinking aloud on?
What do others think ?
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

To me the HMG option would be somewhere in the right ball park ?
It has to be reasonable without being a winner ?
My personal feeling is it's more a Suppressor rather than a killer ?
Like HE ?
It fires a lot of shells but at an "area" rather than a "single spot" ?
That's why it should be classed a bit differently from a Gun ?
Miles

[martin goddard]

I have tried to translate what you are saying Miles.
There is no HMG option because that is what it already is.
It is that HMG effect that  gave rise to the "not worth making" , "non starter" comments from you.

I really am trying my best to give options, but it is hard to get answers from you.

You have not answered question 1,2,3 or 4.
You hint at HE?

I think you are going for the off table HE option? yes/no?

That is all quite simple.
We will try AA as being the same as off table HE.
Cost 4AP to shoot (or residual action).
2 Square effect, 4D6 per item and auto pinning. But with no deviation, as it can see what it is shooting at.
No range restriction.

Is that what we need?

martin