Winners & Losers

[martin goddard]

Good and useful analysis there John. Thank you. It gets discussion going.

My personal thoughts (opinions only).

Stewart's data gives us some good numbers to view over.
Good idea Stewart. Thanks.

Stewart himself is an important factor here too. Stewart  is a very good/capable player and wins most of his games (unless he has my help). Coupled to this, Stewart is the player using the raw.

The less popular nations result might be because more experienced players are using them?

As more games are added to this list than the better we can reflect.


martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

The rules are of course evolving meanwhile - might this be a factor we're not capturing?

Simon

[martin goddard]

I assume you mean player ability?
A tricky one.
However, the victory point system (and some good luck) should still provide recognition of a job done well even if a player loses.

My hope is that players will play at least 8 times in a year. This should allow players to learn from their mistakes and also be able to absorb a horrible mass disaster outcome.

If players skip between various rule sets during a year then they will find it very difficult to get to grips with how to handle PBI forces.
Skippy players ( e.g 12 games in a year with 5 different rule sets) need an alpha player to guide them through each game, cut out a lot of player decision making and do the whole set up. Skippy players represent a different stye of gaming , no better and certainly no worse than repeat (play each set 8 times a year and know the rules well)  players.


martin

[Smoking gun]

The rules are of course evolving meanwhile - might this be a factor we're not capturing?

Simon

Good point Simon. It would be worthwhile identifying the rule version against the result. In science experiments you change one variable at a time.

John also makes a good point about sample sizes. Russians and Italians have a 100% victory rate but have only played 3 and 1 game respectively.

Best wishes,
Martin from Grimsby

[Colonel Kilgore]

I meant how Grimsby Martin interpreted my comment 

Simon

[Colonel Kilgore]

The more I think about this, the more I think that, while it's fun to compare different company lists' performances, it is probably somewhat illusory, due as Grimsby Martin indicates to the large number of other variables.

I believe that this Winners vs. Losers listing started out primarily as a summary of Attacker vs. Defender results which, with this being arguably the major variable, is very valid in my view.

However - apart from some specific rules for Germans, Russians, Japanese and US - there can be (depending on force selection) very little difference between the sides. For example, I happen to be convinced that my Western Desert Italians will (once I've painted up some armour for them...) be a sure-fire game winner. But I'm equally pretty sure that I could point up an 8th Army force to face them that could differ very little in composition.

Which brings me onto another point - should there be a little more variation between forces? E.g. should the Italian Breda 30 LMG be penalised in the same way as the US BAR?

I realise I may be opening a whole can of worms here, and that we probably want to steer well clear of "national characteristics" stereotypes, but as these rules settle down there may be scope for a few such tweaks?

Simon

[John Watson]

The Italians do have a "special". They have a shock platoon which no one else has.
On the point of national differences I would be in favour of the little differences being extended. For example the Finns also employed desant riders on their tanks at times. The American tommy gun was unreliable and had a tendency to jam. Shouldn't the Gurkhas get a 3AP assault against the Germansand Italians as well as the Japanese (the Germans/Itaians were apparently terrified of the Gurkhas). I am sure others could come up with other thoughts.
John

[Colonel Kilgore]

John, what I was getting at was that there are nation-specific rules e.g. for the BAR and Garand, German LMGs and Japan and Russians assaulting on a 3, but nothing equivalent for the Brits, Italians, French, etc. I accept that the  army lists allow differing compositions of bases between nations and periods.

I wasn't trying to suggest adding ant further nuances such as the wide difference in performance of SMGs, but rather mixing up what we already have, such as your suggestion of a reduced score to assault with Gurkhas (which I might even have remembered to include in one of the Crete scenarios).


I think we're heading broadly in the same direction!

Simon

[martin goddard]

If you played games at the Berlin day do please add them to this list.

DATE          ATTACKER          Quality    DEFENDER            Quality    WINNER
15/08/2023  Africa corps        Average    8th Army            Average      A
16/08/2023  8th Army            Average    Africa corp.        Average      A
19/08/2023  Late war German      Average    Late war British    Average      D
21/08/2023  German Pz Grenadiers Average    Late war US         Average      A
26/09/2023  Volkstrum            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
28/09/2023  Late war US          Average    Partisans           Raw          Draw
03/10/2023  Late war British    Average    Partisans            Raw            Draw
05/10/2023  Partisans            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
11/10/2023  Japanese            Raw        14th Army            Average        A
12/10/2023  14th Army            Average    Russian             Average      D
17/10/2023  German Paras        Average    US Army              Average        D
18/10/2023  8th Army            Average    Italian              Average        D
19/10/2023  British Motorised    Veteran   Fallschirmjager      Average      D
21/10/23.    US Army.            Average.    Late Germans       Average    D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average.    Mot 8th Army        Veteran          A
21/10/23.    8th Army.          Average.    Late Germans        Average      D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      D
21/10/23.    Mot 8th Army.          Veteran  Fallschirmjager    Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average    Japanese.            Average        D
24/10/23.    Late German.      Veteran      US Army             Average          A
26/10/23.    Mot British.      Veteran      German              Average          A
31/10/23.    Late German      Veteran      US Army              Average          A
02/11/23.  Mot British.      Veteran      Early French          Average        D
07/11/23      Late German.  Average.  Late Russian.             Veteran        D
09/11/23.    Japanese.    Veteran      British                  Average        A
16/11/23  Motorised. German  average  British                   Average        D
21/11/23.  US Marines.    Average.  Japanese                    Veteran        D
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      French                      Average        A
25/11/23.  French.    Average.      German                      Average        A
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      British mot                 Average      D
28/11/23.  Japanese.  Vet.          US Marines.                 Average      D
30/11/23.  EW German.  Average.    EW British                   Average      Draw
14/12/23.  German.    Average.      British                     Average      D
19/12/23.  Russian.  Average.      German                       Average      A
21/12/23   French   Average        British                      Average      D
28/12/23   British Veteran         German                       Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      A
16/1/24    US       Average        French                       Average      D

       
Stewart 

[Colonel Kilgore]

I've added my two Berlin Day games, with Derek and John, respectively, to the bottom of this list:

DATE          ATTACKER          Quality    DEFENDER            Quality    WINNER
15/08/2023  Africa corps        Average    8th Army            Average      A
16/08/2023  8th Army            Average    Africa corp.        Average      A
19/08/2023  Late war German      Average    Late war British    Average      D
21/08/2023  German Pz Grenadiers Average    Late war US         Average      A
26/09/2023  Volkstrum            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
28/09/2023  Late war US          Average    Partisans           Raw          Draw
03/10/2023  Late war British    Average    Partisans            Raw            Draw
05/10/2023  Partisans            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
11/10/2023  Japanese            Raw        14th Army            Average        A
12/10/2023  14th Army            Average    Russian             Average      D
17/10/2023  German Paras        Average    US Army              Average        D
18/10/2023  8th Army            Average    Italian              Average        D
19/10/2023  British Motorised    Veteran   Fallschirmjager      Average      D
21/10/23.    US Army.            Average.    Late Germans       Average    D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average.    Mot 8th Army        Veteran          A
21/10/23.    8th Army.          Average.    Late Germans        Average      D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      D
21/10/23.    Mot 8th Army.          Veteran  Fallschirmjager    Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average    Japanese.            Average        D
24/10/23.    Late German.      Veteran      US Army             Average          A
26/10/23.    Mot British.      Veteran      German              Average          A
31/10/23.    Late German      Veteran      US Army              Average          A
02/11/23.  Mot British.      Veteran      Early French          Average        D
07/11/23      Late German.  Average.  Late Russian.             Veteran        D
09/11/23.    Japanese.    Veteran      British                  Average        A
16/11/23  Motorised. German  average  British                   Average        D
21/11/23.  US Marines.    Average.  Japanese                    Veteran        D
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      French                      Average        A
25/11/23.  French.    Average.      German                      Average        A
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      British mot                 Average      D
28/11/23.  Japanese.  Vet.          US Marines.                 Average      D
30/11/23.  EW German.  Average.    EW British                   Average      Draw
14/12/23.  German.    Average.      British                     Average      D
19/12/23.  Russian.  Average.      German                       Average      A
21/12/23   French   Average        British                      Average      D
28/12/23   British Veteran         German                       Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      A
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                Average      D
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                 Raw          A
16/1/24    US       Average               French                      Average      D
17/1/24  German         Average         French      Average    A

[John Watson]

You have left off Russian raw attacking German veteran FSJ defenders. Defender win from 13/1/24 results. There are other results missing from that day.
John

[martin goddard]

"If you played games at the Berlin day do please add them to this list."


martin

[martin goddard]

DATE          ATTACKER          Quality    DEFENDER            Quality    WINNER
15/08/2023  Africa corps        Average    8th Army            Average      A
16/08/2023  8th Army            Average    Africa corp.        Average      A
19/08/2023  Late war German      Average    Late war British    Average      D
21/08/2023  German Pz Grenadiers Average    Late war US         Average      A
26/09/2023  Volkstrum            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
28/09/2023  Late war US          Average    Partisans           Raw          Draw
03/10/2023  Late war British    Average    Partisans            Raw            Draw
05/10/2023  Partisans            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
11/10/2023  Japanese            Raw        14th Army            Average        A
12/10/2023  14th Army            Average    Russian             Average      D
17/10/2023  German Paras        Average    US Army              Average        D
18/10/2023  8th Army            Average    Italian              Average        D
19/10/2023  British Motorised    Veteran   Fallschirmjager      Average      D
21/10/23.    US Army.            Average.    Late Germans       Average    D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average.    Mot 8th Army        Veteran          A
21/10/23.    8th Army.          Average.    Late Germans        Average      D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      D
21/10/23.    Mot 8th Army.          Veteran  Fallschirmjager    Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average    Japanese.            Average        D
24/10/23.    Late German.      Veteran      US Army             Average          A
26/10/23.    Mot British.      Veteran      German              Average          A
31/10/23.    Late German      Veteran      US Army              Average          A
02/11/23.  Mot British.      Veteran      Early French          Average        D
07/11/23      Late German.  Average.  Late Russian.             Veteran        D
09/11/23.    Japanese.    Veteran      British                  Average        A
16/11/23  Motorised. German  average  British                   Average        D
21/11/23.  US Marines.    Average.  Japanese                    Veteran        D
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      French                      Average        A
25/11/23.  French.    Average.      German                      Average        A
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      British mot                 Average      D
28/11/23.  Japanese.  Vet.          US Marines.                 Average      D
30/11/23.  EW German.  Average.    EW British                   Average      Draw
14/12/23.  German.    Average.      British                     Average      D
19/12/23.  Russian.  Average.      German                       Average      A
21/12/23   French   Average        British                      Average      D
28/12/23   British Veteran         German                       Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      A
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                Average      D
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                 Raw          A
16/1/24    US       Average               French                      Average      D
17/1/24  German         Average         French      Average    A
23/1/24  Italian raw                   British average                           A
25/1/24  Italian   raw                 British  avergae                          A

[martin goddard]

DATE          ATTACKER          Quality    DEFENDER            Quality    WINNER
15/08/2023  Africa corps        Average    8th Army            Average      A
16/08/2023  8th Army            Average    Africa corp.        Average      A
19/08/2023  Late war German      Average    Late war British    Average      D
21/08/2023  German Pz Grenadiers Average    Late war US         Average      A
26/09/2023  Volkstrum            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
28/09/2023  Late war US          Average    Partisans           Raw          Draw
03/10/2023  Late war British    Average    Partisans            Raw            Draw
05/10/2023  Partisans            Raw        Late war British    Average      A
11/10/2023  Japanese            Raw        14th Army            Average        A
12/10/2023  14th Army            Average    Russian             Average      D
17/10/2023  German Paras        Average    US Army              Average        D
18/10/2023  8th Army            Average    Italian              Average        D
19/10/2023  British Motorised    Veteran   Fallschirmjager      Average      D
21/10/23.    US Army.            Average.    Late Germans       Average    D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average.    Mot 8th Army        Veteran          A
21/10/23.    8th Army.          Average.    Late Germans        Average      D
21/10/23.    Motorised British.  Veteran        Germans         Average      D
21/10/23.    Mot 8th Army.          Veteran  Fallschirmjager    Average      A
21/10/23.    Africa corps.      Average    Japanese.            Average        D
24/10/23.    Late German.      Veteran      US Army             Average          A
26/10/23.    Mot British.      Veteran      German              Average          A
31/10/23.    Late German      Veteran      US Army              Average          A
02/11/23.  Mot British.      Veteran      Early French          Average        D
07/11/23      Late German.  Average.  Late Russian.             Veteran        D
09/11/23.    Japanese.    Veteran      British                  Average        A
16/11/23  Motorised. German  average  British                   Average        D
21/11/23.  US Marines.    Average.  Japanese                    Veteran        D
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      French                      Average        A
25/11/23.  French.    Average.      German                      Average        A
25/11/23.  German.    Average.      British mot                 Average      D
28/11/23.  Japanese.  Vet.          US Marines.                 Average      D
30/11/23.  EW German.  Average.    EW British                   Average      Draw
14/12/23.  German.    Average.      British                     Average      D
19/12/23.  Russian.  Average.      German                       Average      A
21/12/23   French   Average        British                      Average      D
28/12/23   British Veteran         German                       Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      D
13/1/24    German   Average        Russian                      Average      A
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                Average      D
13/1/24    German Late War Average Russian                 Raw          A
16/1/24    US       Average               French                      Average      D
17/1/24  German         Average         French      Average    A
23/1/24  Italian Raw                   British Average                           A
25/1/24  Italian   Raw                 British  Average                          A
1/2/24     Japanese   Average          British Average          A
1/2/24     Japanese  Average          British Average          D

[Nigel_s]

Played five games Thursday evening, all day Friday.

Results

ATT Russian average 1942 vs DEF German Pz Grenadiers average. Def won piggy chase 36v7 (!!).   Result ATT win. Attacker failed all three asset rolls.

ATT British Paras 1944 Vet vs DEF German Pz Grenadiers average. Def won piggy chase 36v26.     Result ATT win

ATT German Infantry 1944 Avge vs DEF US Paras Vet. ATT won piggy chase 36v27.
Result ATT win

ATT Italian 1943 Vet vs DEF American Avge. ATT won piggy chase 36v10.
Result DEF win

ATT American 1943 veteran vs DEF German average. ATT won piggy chase 36v7.
Result ATT win


Attacker wins four to defender once.
The piggy chase winner won two games, lost three.