Clarifications for SB

[Sean Clark]

I would support going with the diagram that uses MG in support. Its very thematic to have MGs used in this way, particularly in assaults. The effect of MGs on the First World War battlefield was way more significant than the rifle. Guns too for that matter. It would be a simple inclusion in an amendment sheet.

[SimonC]

its not a ww1 game if these weapons are bit part players.

MGs are the most important element of this game

[SimonC]

The whole game is about converging numbers of dice onto specific squares in the assault and support of.

I'm not sure I agree with this . Have you played the game Julian ?

[Forst22]

I have played for years and never noticed the text in the box!

Have always assumed guns and Mg's contributed to support square count, but as you need more than one to count as a support square, it is very rare, for a square to meet the criteria without an infantry or cavalry unit present.

If only artillery and Mg's are present, they don't tend to last long under fire!

I find the key to any battle is Infantry! Never can have enough, and point barrages! 

My Tchankas normally get wreaked by artillery long before they have an impact, or have to dismount to hold an objective.I

Great club favourate.

[Leman (Andy)]

I always send my armies out to battle without spraying with varnish. Spray varnish has ruined too many of my figures in the past. I now hand paint varnish on my figures. I have just discovered a matt varnish that is far and away the best I have ever used. It is the one produced by Green Stuff World.

[Sean Clark]

It didn't occur to me that MORE than 1 base is required for support, therefore a lone MG wont count. But maybe if MG's are allowed in support if you have 2 in a square on their own then they could count?

There are plenty of examples of a MG company laying down suppressive fire to allow an assault to go in and prevent any counter attacks forming up. As it stands, 1 MG stand represents 5 actual guns. A MG company had 10 guns, so it sort of makes sense that 2 or more MG stands in a square could count as support, whereas a lone MG stand (half a company) would be insufficient to count as support.

[martin goddard]

Hello Julian
Sorry about your decision.
I can appreciate that you are really annoyed about the MG thing as it makes the game not worth playing for you.
I feel guilty about your having wasted money.
To that end I will offer a refund if that helps calm the situation?
Just send back the tchankas and I will send a refund if that works for you?

martin

Support
I think folk are not understanding the idea of support in SB.
I will try to correct that.

Support does not mean "shooting into the opponent square" with some shooting. The men shooting into the opponent square are those in the assaulting square, not those distant from that sqaure.

It means that men launching an assault benefit by seeing other mobile men nearby.
This is psychology and military expectation (other units of foot moving up with us= good. No other foot units anywhere near = bad)

Each square is 360m in width.
If troops see a body of men within 360m they are comforted and encouraged by the thought that those men are there to help them (support). Those supporting men can move to help reinforce a push forward or even a fall back.
This is why the modifier for assault supporters are worth more.

MG and guns are stationary weapons , unable to surge into joining an assault.
They are really good when being assaulted but are not mobile assault  units.
The MGs were positioned to hold an area not storm it?

Hope that helps???


martin

[Sean Clark]

Clears the issue up perfectly Martin, thank you!

It is worth remembering the scope of the game. The standard game represents a divisional assault. This is a higher level game than something like PBI. Happy with the explanation and I shall go on planning how I'm going to fight off the White hordes next weekend.

Julian,

Lets arrange to meet up for a game with your Manhkovist army. I know you haven't had chance to play yet. I think a couple of games will help sort things out.

Sean

[John Watson]

So what is the outcome?
1. Can Field Guns support?
2. Can MGs support?
3. How many bases in a square counts as support?
John

[Sean Clark]

From a good read through of the rules today...

1. MGs and Field Guns do NOT provide support as per the picture box on page 49.
2. A support square needs MORE than 1 base  to count as support. In other words 1.5 bases or more. This is in the text above the picture box on page 49.

[Forst22]

I am still not convinced about the support squares.

If it represents bodies of men able to rush in then the bar is set too low at more than one base! That's about a Coy of men supporting what could be a Brigade? Whats the difference between that and the sight of a coy of guns and MG's? it's about the same manpower?

I am happy with the concept of support squares being  a measure of " we are part of a bigger push, with reserves and Or supported flanks" or in defence " we are not alone". Anything friendly could help that.

Therefore suggest if the MG's and Field guns don't count then there should be more than 2 bases in the square to count as support?

[martin goddard]

Thanks for the responses.

I must remind folk of what I am achieving here (?).

The aim= to make a list of reminders and clarifications to help players like myself who may have forgotten the finer points.

I have done this before for other rulesets that we have plunged back into.
There might be a new edition one day but not at the moment.

Rules changes are always a good point for discussion though and I support that area of activity.

I do say sorry for this  topic causing some upsets.  SB is "only a game" though and not worthy of falling out over ( I hope).



martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

All clear, thank you Martin.

These clarifications of the rules are a very worthy activity leading up to the Square Bashing Day extravaganza.

Simon

[martin goddard]

Reminders version 16th October 2022


1.   Infantry and cavalry units can fight/play on until totally destroyed.
2.   Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
3.   A support square can be claimed if a square contains a combined total of 1.5 foot/cav bases or more. Do not include MG and artillery.
Damaged tanks and AC count as half bases. Support squares still count, even if they are involved in their own fight, withdrawal  etc.
4.   Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
5.   The score needed for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square.  One diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
6.   Squares can be temporarily overfilled  whilst movement is happening.
7.   Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
8.   Hasty defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
9.   Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
10. Higher command can move left or right, but that will prevent it using any command rolls that turn.
11. Applying hits.
SHOOTING= target chooses location of 1st hit only. 
FIGHTING= target chooses location of first 2 hits only.
12. HITS,  Apply up to 2 hits per unit. After 2 hits applied to each unit, then further hits can still be added to the units.
13. Units can join in an assault even if they come from different start points.  e.g a face touching infantry unit can assault  and be joined by cavalry from two squares away. This also means that infantry might enter the square and still count as "other unit".

How is this going?




martin

[SimonC]

I am happy with the concept of support squares being  a measure of " we are part of a bigger push, with reserves and Or supported flanks" or in defence " we are not alone". Anything friendly could help that.

Therefore suggest if the MG's and Field guns don't count then there should be more than 2 bases in the square to count as support?

I concur with this. Having seen 3 x half bases acting as a support square its doesn't feel right.  There is also the difference in support between assaulters and defenders support (IMHO) ... In Walter Schnaffs we changed this so only 'at strength' units could act as support. But in WW1 support squares for defenders not counting MGs support just seems odd (IMHO). For assaulters its a better argument for 'more men' .. But id say only 'at strength'. Packets of shattered battalions lurking around the rear doesn't quite feel right