July PBI catch up. Big guns,Late war.

[Smiley Miley 66]

So Martin wants to test how some of the bigger tanks/vehicles especially with Howitzers and Flammers  are working in the rules. Remember there are some set up changes to the old Architect with extra added points for HE 3 and 5 vehicles.

So first of the week of Monday 11th thru to Saturday 16th July I am off.
So any suggestions on a day a few of us can attend ?
Mike say he can do Tuesday, but not Wednesday?
I myself can do any ?
Richard?
Martin ?
John ?
Maybe Chris?
Weymouth Mike ?
Matt and Tim depending on the days chosen?

So July 1944 a lot of big gun vehicles had started to enter the war.
Main theatres of Operation:
Middle Russia, Romania, Ukraine.
Normandy, Caen and attempted breakout by the Americans into Western and Middle France.
Middle of Italy.
Burma Jungles
American Island hopping in the Pacific.
Plenty of opportunity to use big Howitzers towed or self propelled and Flamers Vehicles and man propelled and even some big A/T guns too.
Miles

[martin goddard]

If there is the chance, I would like us to test using  the standard company. 3 platoons, 3 tanks + support platoon (or variations on that).

Not too keen at all on testing flammers and  HE tanks. We know what they do. They are very good.
The aim is to make a  normal company the best company.

Companies that wander from this norm should be a "gamble".Players should feel welcome to use them but they must not be intrinsically better than a normal company.

By gamble I mean that a "wandering from normal " company will have components that might give a big win but also and equally give a big loss.

If a wander company is better than a normal company, then all players would want to use them.

It is vital to the soul  of PBI that a normal company is the best choice.
I am tempted to restrict flammer tanks, big HE tanks etc to scenario use only and not allow them into a normal PBI game. After all they are specialist weapons used for specialist tasks.

This should get some discussion going.
Some questions to start the conversation.
"Why does martin keep on trying to get players to use normal companies?
"Shouldn't players seek to gain an advantage by using superior weaponry?"

martin

[Stewart 46A]

Well I think PBI is as it says on the tin,

WW2 company level game,

From what I know(?) a company was normally
HQ element
3 rifle platoons
Support platoon 

Battalion or Division would assign other assets like
Artillery, armour or engineers for specific tasks

So maybe if a player ends up defending should lose attached armour and engineers.

It's then down to a player's tactics using the scenery on the table to achieve the objectives.

Hobart's funnies were designed for a specific task , I dont think many bridge layers were attached to platoons for attacks in the field.

Stewart

[Smiley Miley 66]

This should get some discussion going.
Some questions to start the conversation.
"Why does martin keep on trying to get players to use normal companies?
"Shouldn't players seek to gain an advantage by using superior weaponry?"

martin
[/quote]

Well I will always answer this with German LMG's as with this sentence these will time again come to mind. Also German LW A/T infantry weapon's can come into this as well.
As documented in another thread, those of us that use British is to use the weapons that in the LW in real life.

As I said after the last catch up when Playing Italians and Japanese the above issues didn't come into play;but using 1943 plus Germans does seem to go into your " superior Weaponry" category in the way PBI plays ! Espeacially when the LMG's are grouped up into impregnable nests !

Would be nice for once when making a Normal German Company that the German player uses Panzer 111's and/or Panzer 1V's instead of Panthers and Tiger tanks ?

I am happy to use a British force used in an "Italian war type force" with the mix of Churchills with Sherman 75's and Sherman's as the 3 tanks
Depending on what points are left to give me a support company MMG or towed guns or something in that vain ?

But I will always say the British large Howitzer is only as good as the 1,2 that the saving rolls come up with ? After you have rolled a "10" plus to archive a hit infantry?
Same with the Flammers they are only as good as the "6" that's are rolled and the saving rolls rolled as well ?
So yes they can roll large numbers but on the other hand there are a lot of good saves built into the "Hits"
Remember a large nest of German LMG's still roll more dice in each opportunity roll than an infantry flamer ? Also it does have to be in the next Square before it can be used which the LMG nest doesn't necessarily!
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

Stewart remember the Bridgelayer also able to carry fascine rolls, to fill in Bomb craters and big holes and ways over big concrete structures too; as well as the Bridges themselves. All of the equipment used was bolt on. The Hessian Roadway rolls could also be used, but rarely after the Beach assaults ? Also the ARK bridge tanks which were used to drive into the big holes to fill in these big holes as well.
Then the Crocodiles to try and burn down these MG nests in a impregnable bunker.
If these obstacles are in the way then these weapons of Engineers can be asked for ?
Miles

[Stewart 46A]

Miles,
That what I said, Crocadiles etc would be assigned by Division for specific tasks,
Company in defence wouldn't normal have them attached.

Dont forget in PBI the cost of Average German LMGis 14 points to other LMG's 10 points so for each German platoon with 3 LMG's the non German player can have 2 extra rifle bases.

Being points based, super weapon's eat your points.
Tigers can be taking out, ask Martin , my brave US infantry man killed his Tiger with a Bazooka

Stewart

[Smiley Miley 66]

Your US troops. Try it with British troops ?
US troops also have Gerrand rifles. The only way I can match these with British is to Upgrade to Recon troops with extra LMG's ( then that's counted as making a "Super Army")
But 2 extra rifle bases don't make up for 3 German LMG's in a Building or wood with a good field of fire
Also turning up in an adjacent Square with flamers to try and burn them out is also counted as a super army. Every time I ve ever tried to try and equal the fire power or get close to what a German can produce it is called producing a Super army.
Wether it is the rules makes these German LW weapons so powerful?
If I could see to paint straps and belts I would love to paint up a US Army ? But until I can afford to get my eyesight sorted I can't make this type of force.
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

This is my choice of tanks for Italy. I obviously have to choose 3 out of them. Add my 8th Army and I have a PBI force ?
Miles

[Stewart 46A]

Very nice Miles,
What are the extra turrets?

Stewart

[martin goddard]

Here are some ideas that might  make PBI more acceptable?

Let us  give the Bren +2D6 in shooting. Historically correct I think. The Bren was always noted for its massive firepower compared to other MGs.
Nothing should be better than anything British.
This will require getting rid of the US Garand bonus too. Sorry chaps. Enfield is so much faster at shooting.
We could also make the PIAT have a better range than any other AT weapon as has been argued here previously. I believe it had a 450m range.
We could also let the British assault for 3AP as they are the best assaulters of the war.
It is important that the British are the best company to use.

Sound better?

martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

Don't be silly, but something is not right.
You say that flamers have a massive bonus, Howitzers of HE 3 have a massive bonus ? A/cars with HMG/MMG's have a massive bonus?
Howitzers first of all they "really" have to score a 10 plus to hit as they are firing at infantry. Then each base only dies if the roll a 1 or 2 ? On a saving roll. There's a lot of scope that gun won't hit ? When it does yes it can kill.
Flamers yes once it has arrived at an adjacent square, suffered all of the fire from 6 squares plus, right up to and including Opportunity fire  and got the right amount of points to fire. Then it might be able to fire. Then it has to get '6' to hit and if it does archive this then maybe the target can then save with 5 and 6's
Remember if the opponent knows that there is a flamer in there they will try and target that base as many times as the rules allow ?
That's a lot of things that can go wrong before these weapons can possibly score and be destructive! 
But at the same time a German LMG doesn't but in a given turn does get 2-3plus action points can fire with more D6's  than most of these so called super weapons ? Especially if grouped together.
When the British or Allied forces which will include Canada, Australian etc fire with these weapons that can muster a possible (bucket load of dice?) load of D6's they are classed as "big" or "super" weapons ?
It does seem that if a British or Commonwealth player who might be able to bring on a weapon that might possibly muster more than 6 D6's or fire a "Big" weapon beyond one square range ? it is seemingly deemed a super weapon?
That's all I have ever tried to point out.
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

The Extra turrets are optional turrets for some of the tanks, that the plastic versions supply.
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

Ok a better way to solve this.
What is Martins Definition of a Super Weapon ?
As a Matilda CS tank was earlier this year put into that seemingly put into this definition? With an Obsolete WW1 3 inch, 13pdr Howitzer that has an AP value of 4 and an HE value of 2.
Also an HMG/MMG armed A/car was also put into this category?
I am to say confused. Is it by how big ? how much ? How many Dice can it "fire out" ? not literally !!

On another note looking at the Flamethrowers now looks a good compromise on fire power and the opponents either getting away or maybe survival!
As long as the Flammers can get close enough to do his thing ?

Miles

[Sean Clark]

Goodness me , I think this argument  has been going backwards and forwards for several years now 

I think for me the game is Poor Bloody Infantry. So infantry is the focus, with some support.

Now Ive used late war US. The Garand is great but their LMG is terrible. So that mitigates it somewhat.

I usually have 3 Shermans, but they very rarely last to the end of the game.

Ive also used late war Germans with MG42s and usually STUGs though occasionally a Tiger or Panther. Fighting agaisnt Germans, I think smoke is important, second only to pinning a square prior to an assault. 

Quantity has a quality all of its own. Russians  can swamp German forces with raw troops very quickly. Even MG42's cant kill them fast enogh.

Just my thoughts. Im not very good with WW2 history,  but can say I've enjoyed every game of PBI I've played.