Query about banner sizes

[sukhe_bator (Neil)]

I went to add my homemade heraldic banners to the WoTR standard bearers only to find that the poles were on the whole too short.
I have been going by the size of the Garter banners (albeit the Victorian versions) in St George's Chapel which are 5 feet sq (15 x 15mm in 3mill to the foot scale). Three foot sq banners (e.g. 9 x 9mm) are apparently a modern development.
The width of a heraldic standard at the hoist is usually 4 feet (12mm) tapering to about 2 feet (6mm).
The 'portrait' orientation St George banner carried by most Medieval English troops abroad seems to have been at least 5 feet at the hoist.

Does anyone know any different? I want to avoid drilling out hands and replacing poles if I can avoid it... It looks like I'm already facing repainting the banners as it is...    

[John Watson]

I tend to agree with you Neil. Heraldic banners and standards were big so that they were visible. Standards apparently tapered from 4' at the pole down to 2'. Banners were about 5' by 5'. There is a Wiki entry on Scottish banners that states that in that country the size of the banner showed you rank. So the king's banner was the largest and a mere knight would have a relatively small one. A duke's one would be bigger than an earl's one. I have no idea if this was duplicated in other countries, but given the importance (or self importance) of the English nobility it would not surprise me.
I would suggest that you either need to drill out the hands on your figures or try to extend the flagpoles on the figures in some other way.
John

[John Watson]

Or ask Martin to recast the standard bearers, since he is working on the WotR figures at the moment.
John

[Moggy]

Size isn't everything John!  (sigh)   

Derek

[Bankinista]

To quote from the specific (and non-period specific) flag discussion:

I don't bother with scaling because it's a faff and the biggest error with all wargame flags is that they fly as if made of silk and in a gale. Then look at the two opposing sides in a game and try to suss the wind direction! When all is said and done flags are there as convenient markers for the gamers and realism is somewhat secondary. Just do what fits on the figure.

Bankinista

[sukhe_bator (Neil)]

The banners most useful to wargamers to signify the leaders etc. were stiffened with buckram so they were mostly flat and the heraldry visible regardless of the wind direction. Only standards and smaller gonfanons, pennons etc were designed to flutter.

The flags I fielded for Mex Rev were impressionistic precisely because they would be folded and fluttering and obscure much of the detail anyway. I like to hand paint my heraldic banners and quite frankly the scale 5 foot square 15mm x 15mm size is the smallest I can realistically manage.

I painted a 25mm ECW army many years ago and struggled with the 2 foot square cavalry cornets - which had the most interesting symbols and slogans. In 4mill per foot that was 8mm square - far too small for me so those I did decide to paint overscale.

[usagitsuki]

Some sizes of standards from 2 Tudor sources. (Via 'De Walden's Banners, Standards and Badges')

[martin goddard]

What length would you like chaps?

martin

[John Watson]

Freezywater (Lance and Longbow) flags are 15mm from top to bottom and so I would suggest that flagpoles need to be about 18mm from the top of the upper holding hand to the top of the pole.
John

[Leslie BT]

Too small John they need to be biggggggggggggggger.

[sukhe_bator (Neil)]

15mm above the hand is 5 feet in scale, so is the minimum required for 5 foot high banners and 4 foot high standards. 18mm clearance above the top hand would make a 6 foot clearance. The general rule of thumb is much the same as for oars (e.g. 1/3 'inboard' below the fulcrum/top hand and 2/3 above) so would give a 30mm (10 foot pole) overall. The flag twirling parades seen in Italy and Spain that have their origins in the Renaissance are based on a different tradition using lighter silk flags and proportions are more like 1/4:3/4.