Carthage Vs Rome

[Moggy]

Carthage is taking on Imperial Rome this time. Trying to keep to V12 rules as much as I can. (Except for terrain layout section)

The Troops

Carthage

3 Cav (1 vet 2 Trd) Armd Sh
3 Cav Sk
5 Cl/Ord Trd SH
4 Aux Trd SH
3 Sk
1 Art
2 Elephants Trd                299 points

Rome

8 Cl/Ord (2 vet 6 trd) ARmd sh
3 Aux Trd Armd Sh
3 Sk                                 300 points

Terrain

Have 1 village, 2 woods, 1 rough, 1 marsh, 1 gentle hill, 1 rough hill, 1 impassable.  All initial locations diced for on the 6x5 grid (6 on second dice rerolled). This left this layout.



Markers laid down as per rules. Items re-rolled for new location. If locations already occupied or 6 rolled on second dice item remains in place.  This left the field of battle as



Piggy chase went as expected with Carthages initial jump of 5 points winning by 17 points and will attack. This makes all depletion rolls 1 better

[Moggy]

Troops deployed. Tough call for the Romans as not a lot of units. Column 2 is risky as clear all the way. The rest of row 2 has defendable terrain./

For Carthage a pretty open field except for col 1 with that impassable block in row 3. Decided to sneak some foot sk in that column to flank the roman line.


Depletions cost the romans 1 aux unit off table and 3 half bases so got off light really. Still not convinced by the depletions section.



This was after first move (forgot to take piccy before). may be hard to get those foot in the marsh moving

[Moggy]

Hmm,

ran into issues.

Flank attack - Moved skirmish unit down the flank and attacked flank. of a zone with 2 cl/ord, 1 aux and a sk unit.  Sk unit still rolled the minimum of 5 dice (gaining 4 dice) and the defenders lost 3 (attacked from flank) leaving the dice as 5 vs 11. The defenders win as expected and gain 3 winning the fight markers.

The defenders are then assaulted from the front by a mixed cav and cl/order inf. They take a battering on the hits although they saved most.  Yes they gain +3 from the WTF markers but also get a -4 from second fight. This left them with 5 cas markers and fell back (including the pursuit roll) and lost the sk unit being ridden down. This left them at the table edge.

During their morale they had 5 dice to go failed three, rerolled for the general and failed 3.

I do not think formed disciplined troops should be effected by a flank attack from skirmishers and perhaps skirmish troops should only be allowed to assault other skirmish troops unless better troops are also assaulting.

This then leaves 3 units back in reinforcements - 2 Cl/order with 2 bases and 1 aux with 1 base. plus 3 cas markers for the 3 half bases lost leaving the table. When are these dealt with. I would  suggest that the cas markers are rolled on the next morale phase and providing no fails the unit can roll to return as normal on their next reinforcement phase (which would be next turn)

If I had assaulted from the front first the dice would have been 16 vs 10(roman). Assuming the Romans won this fight and took minimal losses they would then have been on 5 vs 7(roman).. Not a bad way for a single skirmish unit to run off 3 normal foot units. Pretty unbalanced I would say.


Potential solution to the issues.

Skirmishes are not permitted to assault by themselves.
Second attack only generate a -3 mod not minus 4 (would counteract the 3 WTF markers)
Unit's casualties for leaving the table have to be dealt with in a morale phase before the units can try to return. This would include a general (who could return as per replacement general but still with all benefits)

[Moggy]

Next issue. Next zone along from previous one. This zone is a village containing 1 Cl/Ord (2.5 bases) 1 sk (2 bases) To its front it has 1 cl/order 3 bases 1 aux 3 bases 2 sk cav 3 bases each. To its flank it has 3 cav all at 3 bases 1 unit vet, 1 cl/order 3 bases 1 sk cav 2 bases.   Due tp chooting the defending units are down to cl/ord (2 bases) sk (.5 base).

Attacked from flank - dice rolled 19 v 8(roman)..... 5 hits vs 3 (roman).


Can both hits be absorbed by the skirmish unit that only has half a base left?   I would say no and next 2 hits go to the cl/ord with the fifth to the general (both side have one) The left over hit is allocated bythe attacker.


Solution

A unit may not take more hits than it has half bases left until after the initial max of 2 per unit is allocated.  This will eliminate a sneaky way to absorb extra hits on a barely existant unit.


All troops were killed in the pursuit. General retire back one zone. Does he take the casualties with him? I would say no

The cav/inf force moves into the village. It already has 3 WTF markers. Does it gain a further 3 WTF markers to distibute? (5 units in zone inc 1 sk cav)

[Moggy]

Following turn (roman) nothing much happened but the off table units did get rid of the cas markers with no further losses. Time ran out on the clock leaving the field like this




Final scores


                                        Carthage                        Rome

Owning field                          36
better destroyed                      3
better weakened                     10
Other destroyed                       4
Other weakened                                                          3

Totals                                   53                                   3

A great victory to Carthage................. Next step Rome itself!

[martin goddard]

Good and pertinent questions Derek

Thanks for playing the games.
I will put out a CK 13 on Weds to take account of your thoughts.


By the way, I think WTF markers might be better as "winning" markers?
Albeit it that the thought might be appropriate to the fighting men.


martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

Indeed - we need an alternative acronym to "WTF", which might give entirely the wrong impression!

Simon

[Moggy]

hehehe OK, point taken about the markers.

Still didn't get the Elephants to play. Too much terrain they can't go into.

Artillery. Worked well under v12 rules 4 dice per shot with no saves. Very handy and cheap at 5 points.

Back to Simons 10 questions from previous game

1. How far through the game was the outcome very obvious

turn 5 when the skirmisher on the flank assaulted 3 formed unit, then they were rode down by massed cavalry.

2. Did the army with lesser but better troops perform with more effect than the army with greater numbers?

No, Romans with legions have too few troops if they go with the 8 cl/order troops units. If they are armoured that 25 per unit. 2/3 of the army used for 8 units and not a lot of points left especially if they have a few veteran units in the mix. They saved well most of the time but as assaults are based on hits not casualties this doesn't matter.

3. How did you  place skirmish units. Number per zone?

Cav skirmishers and foot skirmishers pretty well 1 per column. They are more effective now as they get 2 dice shooting and count as shielded saving from assaults.

4. Did you always risk the general in order to get 2 more D6 in a fight?

No, the flank attack from the skirmisher I didn't but with hindsight I could well have. Skirmisher only got the minimum 5 dice so assuming he would miss with at least one the general was safe.

5. Scenery too much, too little. Where it ended up?

Uses a randomised system for the final locations of the scenery which I think worked well. It is luck it ended up along defenders row 2 but yes, I think is was OK.

[Moggy]

6. Visually did it look like a battle?

Yes, the Roman collapse on his left flank and the line being rolled up by massed cavalry seemed to be a realistic portrayal

7. How crammed (physically) were the zones  and did it look OK?

Got a bit crowded at one time. Had 4 units plus a skirmisher plus general, elephant and artillery. I think that is going to be quite rare though.

8. How important was initial deployment?

Hugely important. For the Romans with so few units it was pretty much 2 per in the 4 central zones and fill in on the other. They got lucky about the depletions only losing 1 unit to reinforcement.

I had to re-do deployment for Carthage as initially had the elephants in the marsh with the cav ready to roll down onto the roman left flank on the unit in the open. It was only when trying to figure out the roll for leaving scenery I realised so had to take a step back.

9. How about every army has a "trick", "special rule", "big thing"?

Yep, still hold with this. Maybe have 3 or 4 items overall and the individual army gets 1 each to keep it simple.

10. Thoughts on rolling  a big handful of D6?

Still love it.


So, how many figures need for the Army

Rome  127 foot plus 18 skirmisher
Carthage  96 foot 18 skirmisher 27 XCav 18 Sk cav 1 Art 2 Hefalumpfs


Not too many figures.

Enjoyable game but with the weakness on flank attacks this could be off-putting to a novice player. Having your line rolled up isn't pleasant for even the most experienced of us. After the second zone went to this is was more a matter of "Can I survive before the clock runs out".

[Moggy]

Good and pertinent questions Derek

Thanks for playing the games.
I will put out a CK 13 on Weds to take account of your thoughts.


By the way, I think WTF markers might be better as "winning" markers?
Albeit it that the thought might be appropriate to the fighting men.


martin

Do you want to just skip V13 and jump to 14. Don't want to tempt fate!

[martin goddard]

Here are soem thoughts on your  battles Derek.
It is good to see some feedback

1. Skirmishers not being allowed to charge on   their  own  would lead to problems on the flanks.
i.e a unit of auxiliary could block all progress by skirmishers. Just stand there and block.

2. Applying two hits to a single base unit. This is Ok as kills still produce casualty markers. There will never be two hits applied to a half base because any half base unit is removed instantly and will not alive to see any more hit infliction.

3.i have sorted the casualty marker point. Casualty markers are removed by any unit moving off table. There are no casualty markers off table.

4. I will rename  "winning the fight" as "winning"

Keep up the good work Derek. Thank you.

martin

[Moggy]

Thanks Martin

1.   Could we see 1 defending Close or Aux unit then allocated to defend against a flank charge from skirmishers to block it. It would then not be taken into account from an attack from another source.  That way a skirmisher flank attack would still have merit as a tactic. Otherwise they face the 2 attacks as normal.


2.    Must have missed that in the rules.

3.   That's fine as long as it is in the rules to be clear for all. Also can troops leaving the table for any reason return the same turn they left.

4.   Spoilsport!

Looking forward to next version. Anything specific you would like me to test out on next game.

Derek

[Moggy]

Good and pertinent questions Derek

Thanks for playing the games.
I will put out a CK 13 on Weds to take account of your thoughts.


By the way, I think WTF markers might be better as "winning" markers?
Albeit it that the thought might be appropriate to the fighting men.


martin

Do you want to just skip V13 and jump to 14. Don't want to tempt fate!

No sign of this yet Martin. Have I been missed because I spot "stuff" lol


Derek

[martin goddard]

I had better check to see what has occurred Derek.
back  a bit later to see what has happened

martin