C + K Zones

[owaincaesarius]

My original C&K set was lost sometime but I remember playing it with some fondness- however my usual opponents were more competition orientated. I really liked the pre-battle sequence and it seemed really quite realistic and plausible so I hope that can be retained (largely) as it is.

Things I would like to see.

1. Pre-battle as above
2. Option to accommodate "standard" 40mm bases as that is what most folks probably already have.
3. Narrow-ish time span. Sort of agree with the Hellenistic-Late Republican rome era but in the interests of what would be popular maybe the Peloponnesian war until the end of the Western Roman empire may be more popular.
4. I know this is heresy but maybe a "play without a grid" option.
5. Some sort of campaign mechanism.

I now I am not asking for much.

Graham

[Sean Clark]

I have fond memories of playing C&K at Fisticuffs when it was a 2 day show.

I also have a copy of some ancient rules called 'Oi!' by the Effing Levellers, predating the RFCM stable of rules.

[martin goddard]

Hello Graham
Some good thoughts there.

Thanks for bring them up.

C+K is up for  a re-write but I am not sure when.
The ancient rules "scene" is the same today as when WRG laid it down in the 1970s.

ie. 1. Allowance of any body fights anybody. To ensure wide appeal.
     2. Very detailed troop classification. To satisfy players wishes for better troops.
3. No allowance for "in war" facts. To allow samurai to fight Aztecs.

Players want all these things and they get them in the majority of current rule offerings. 
That makes very good business sense.

The 40mm system was also a WRG invention.
It has been copied by most ancient rule sets despite the obvious shortcomings of it.

A new edition of CK would be in the privileged situation to be able to ignore most/all of the WRG foundations.


I would aim CK at either "Hoplite to phalanx"  or "5 centuries of Rome".
These periods are still wide enough to incur some of the very criticisms i  listed above.
CK would be gridded but not in the usual way.
This would of course require a cloth to be marked up.
The central areas would be wide but not deep.
The flank areas would be bigger.
This gridding would be a major turn off for many existing gamers but those would not be the main target audience.
Units of 2-6 bases. 10+ units per side.

All this "purity" is very nice but will restrict the potential audience. That would  be a sacrifice worth making, otherwise it would be just anther DBx clone of which there are so many.

Hope this gives some ideas of the CK think?

At this stage it is nothing more concrete though.

I would like to avoid
1. The super army ( by using broad classifications and by using pre game manipulation)
2.Wildly out of context armies (narrower period)
3. Restrictive base sizes (by using a grid)
4. Appealing to those already enjoying competition gaming.(they are happy with what they have)
5. Skirmishes pretending to be battles.

I see the major problem for the writing team is going up against a world view by gamers based upon what they have already played "Where are the light heavy infantry". " I read that a man swinging an axe is very dangerous opponent when fighting in closed ranks".

martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

Thanks for sharing your outline plans, Martin. I like the emerging design ethos.

However, I think I will hold off painting anything new until the fundamental direction of whether we're heading towards Greece or Rome has been settled!

Simon

[Sean Clark]

Apropos nothing, I am only missing Hoka Hey to complete my collection of every known rule set produced by the Peter Pig team.

Ancients is something I have rarely done. However out good friend the Admin here has provided me with some Huns and Tim Porter (Madaxeman) has provided me some Middle/Late Romans to use with ADLG. They will be based to the 40mm style, but for gridded games that will work.

[martin goddard]

Tim Porter really knows his stuff about ancient competitions.
He also supplies excellent statistics on rules used etc.

ADLG has a very big following.
I know little about it, but the salient features that attract players might (?) be the small army size and small table size.
That  would attract me to a game.

I remember when DBA first came out.
It was such a fresh idea i immediately painted two armies that week.



martin

If the CK grid is "complicated" I might ask a mat print company to make mats for it.
This might require desert, grassland and ?
I think the table size would be 5x3.
Bases 3x3 and 3x4 etc.
D6 only.
None of that is new to members here.

martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

Apropos of your post, Sean, I too have Huns and Late Romans, based for DBx.

So I guess that makes it a dead certainty that Martin opts for the Hellenic theatre 

Simon

[martin goddard]

I need to find out what ancient armies the folk here have. Then i can choose the opposite option and make a lot of money.
Genius (?)
Also special "hero" figures that can only  be bought from PP?
I have noticed from films, that the two opposing generals hack their way toward each other in order to carry out the "my speech " scene, whilst those around them fight more quietly.


martin

PS just don't mention factions.

[Sean Clark]

Cunning idea Martin.

But if it was Hellenistics and there was a range for it.... Well, we all know what I'd be doing with my disposable income 🤣😂

[Sean Clark]

But seriously, if anyone knows where I can find a copy of Hoka Hey! Let me know.

[Stewart 46A]

I don't normally play ancients but I have two factions that I painted for my Dad and have found their way back to me.
Romans and another group with shields and swords/spears, I think Chris did identify them but I can't remember.


Stewart

[Stewart 46A]

Hi Sean
I have managed to get a copy of Hoka hey from the States (with postage £14) should arrive by end of June


Stewart

[Colonel Kilgore]

Nice to see such cunning plans afoot even before the rules have been drafted!

I look forward to the ride (once MexRev, PBI2020 "the pandemic version" and PBI single-side are all done and dusted?).

Simon

[John Watson]

You could look at covering the Crusader era (Byzantines, various Middle eastern forces, Crusader armies, Egyptians) or 11th century western Europe (Normans, French, English, Vikings, Norse Irish, Welsh, Scots and so on). I have never played the original C and K but have played various ancients rules since WRG 5th edition.
I played Art de la Guerre for the first time last week. I would describe it as a cross between Field of Glory and DBA.
John

[martin goddard]

I played "Peltast and Pila" "Hoplon" others back in 1976.
Ancients and Napoleonics are the graveyard of rule sets.
Anyone remember them ?


martin