PBI complexity

[martin goddard]

Whist i am musing over the start points for SSPBI.
May i ask for some subjective/opinion feedback on comparative complexity.
Remember there is no correct answer , just an opinion.

Rough guidance

At the "ten"end of complexity we have buying a house, learning a new software package, tracing your ancestors.
At the "five" we have finding where you put an item three years ago, remembering who was in your class 15 years ago or learning how to change a pair of taps in the kitchen.
At the "one" level we have counting to 36, 5x16, rolling 6D6 and picking out the scores of 5,6.

SSPBI needs to be pitched at about 7  I think??

What level would you put the present PBI at out of 10?
What level would you like a game to be at in order to attract you to play more than once?
What would be your priority out of battle reports, video tutorials or example with pictures or other (suggest)?

Of course we are a small sample but all responses gratefully received.


martin

[Wardy64]

Ben and I have played 5 games of PBI over the Christmas holidays. We are fairly new to playing the game so are learning as we play, having chatted on it, we would say a 6 for the current game. Ben feels 40K which he plays a lot is a more complex game maybe on an 8.
The biggest issue for us has been remembering the rules, or coming across scenarios we have not played before therefore needing to look up the answers which causes the games to be played at a slower pace. It is obviously more complex than playing a game such as Game of Thrones Risk, which we played several times over the holidays.
Dave and Ben

[Colonel Kilgore]

I think that there is also something about perception of complexity, and actual complexity. When I initially read the PBI rules (carefully, several times), I was lost.
But when I played it, things dropped more into place.
I am not a fan of complexity for complexity's sake: indeed a feature of RFCM rules is - in my mind - the effort that goes into reducing complexity while retaining appropriate granularity and specific detail.
So, I'd suggest a politician's answer and would attempt to reframe the question.
The rules should maybe be a 6 or 7 in terms of level of detail available, but perhaps a 3 or 4 in terms of gaming "complexity" (i.e. due to the elegant mechanisms developed to manage such complexity).
Does this help in any way?
Simon

[Stewart 46A]

I would put PBI at about 5

[John Watson]

Hi Martin, I'm not sure you can categorise things the way you have. I think they are different for everyone. I would put tracing ancestors at a 5, whilst remembering names or where I put something can be nearer 10 (that's probably age related).
With any set of rules I find them easier to use and more playable if they have a logic I can tune into straight away. In this sense I find CWB by far the best set off rules I have played. PBI is up there not far behind but it is not as intuitive as CWB for me. There are a few things in PBI that either I don't agree with or don't fully understand and that is where I start to struggle.
All of which fails to answer your question. I guess my answer has to be that CWB is intuitive to me and that should be the aiming point. Make the rules intuitive and I will want to play them.

[SimonC]

I have really trouble with PBI. I play a lot of games, and I cannot quite fathom out PBI. I can't quite decide whether its the layout (which is frustrating) or the mechanics (which just don't seem to click with me) ... So i'd put it at 9.  For reference I'd put SB most PP games at 1-2, not complicated but they click.

[Sean Clark]

Simon...i haven't forgotten the promise to come down to Burton with PBI...daughters after school activities are a barrier at the moment. It's definitely a game that if you play with an experienced player it all clicks into place.

[Sean Clark]

Having said the above, WW2 is not a favoured period of mine and I doubt I'd play it if it wasn't for PBI. I enjoy the scale of the game, the ease of which you can collect a playable company, and the cinematic moments you can have in game. Whether that is a lucky shot from a tank, a Platoon Commander running across open ground to help his platoon or a crazy  assault that shouldn't work but does - these are moments that keep me coming back for more.

Oddly, even though it is one of my lesser favoured periods, I've played more PBI than most other games.
Complexity wise from a basic mechanic point of view it is relatively straight forward...say a 5. Add in all of the extra weapons, vehicles, troop types and in game situations (I.e. the bits that make it both a WW2 game and interesting) and it rises to an 8 or a 9.

But this is for a newcomer. For old hands, the complexity remains only a 6 or 7. It's a game that rewards good tactics, knowledge of the period and occasionally a lucky dice roll.

[pbeccas (Paul)]

10.
I bought it, wanted to love it.  Didn't understand it.  Never played.

[Stewart 46A]

Pbeccas where in the world are you?

[martin goddard]

All of the replies have been most helpful, without exception.
Any ore will still be most useful.
Even passing thoughts...

[Smiley Miley 66]

I agree with John on a lot of his scores, don't know about where I put something 3 years ago ? Where did I put my Glasses too....?

As a lot of people are saying a 6/7 Would be ideal. But there has been chat about a"Show" level gamette to be put in the rules ? 3/4 level to get people into the game ? Then they can build up to the 6/7 level of understanding as they progress through the rules.
It's not just WW2 rules as Ben and Dave pointed out 40K type skirmish and platoon/Company level "Modern" Warfare type of games are complicated.Life is complicated. They are for Real and we only ever play a simplification of what actually happens in a one to one or team on team situation.
It's about How Real, How much Fun and How much Realism and Feel you want and expect in the game for that chosen period etc.....
One thing about the RFCM games is these levels seem to be right give or take ! That's because a lot of different people on here get involved with the making of the rules. Even on this forum, why at first can look like a "Silly" question ? Things can be discussed on here without people biting your head off and in the end it can be a viable point that may be included into a set of rules.
Common Sense also applies to most of the games we play, if you were in that situation? What would you do or expect to do ? And what would you expect to happen From a common sense point of view, not because I want to win ?
What I like about the rules we mostly play is when a situation comes about that the rules don't cover using a D6 with 1 being a fail and a 6 being a pass how would you solve it ?or the 123 and 456 rolls ?  It's amazing how amicable you can resolve a situation like that ?
These are some things I think we should be looking at to archive a 6/7 level in RFCM games as a whole !
Miles

[Big Mike]

PBI is my preferred game of all PP games. Why? Because it is a challenging game but it is totally engrossing. Complexity level is 5 but the need to keep looking up stuff is a downside. This is easily solved by more reference tables such as the table for weapons already included in the rules.

[Colonel Kilgore]

I think another factor to consider here is the flexibility to possible scenarios playable within the rules.

Some RFCM rules are effectively limited to a single scenario e.g.
- Pirates land: a raid to grab stuff from a town
- Pirates sea: seize merchantmen before they escape off the edge of the table
- Western: hold/seize the terrain in the middle of the table before time runs out
- Vietnam: search and destroy; search and rescue; defend the camp (OK, that's more than one)

There's nothing inherently wrong with this, but such games do allow for their rules to be written more simply.

PBI is not only complicated by the vast array of weapons and tactics available across different geographies, but also by the wide range of tactical scenarios that can be supported. The rules as written include 3 objectives, but we've seen at the PBI "megadays" that they are inherently very flexible.

This is a dimension of "complexity" that I for one would not wish to lose in PBI, but recognise that some kind of simplification may be necessary due to the "programmed opponent" element of SSPBI.

[Sean Clark]

On the point of scenarios, I think this is an inherent benefit of how the various rules are written. You can turn up with your figures and play with little fuss.

However, there is nothing wrong with using scenarios from over games, or setting historical scenarios, or playing a straight line up your figures and shouting go without any pre game sequence or attack/defender situation.

A criticism I have heard from some people is that playing by the book  PBI might get a bit stale after a while. I reply with 2 points. Firstly I've played probably 30+ games and never felt that the game is stale. And secondly, once you've bought the rules, they are yours to do with as you wish. Why not take a scenario from Chain of Command or Bolt Action and convert it to PBI? In fact that could be be an article for the Mill! 😀