Captured equipment in PBI

[martin goddard]

I thought I might give a lead in the discussion of this specifically.
The company commander book allows the use of captured vehicles if there is photographic and text  support. This is fine.

The company architect book does state that players should say if they are using captured equipment.
If they do so, the other player has an option to re-jig (re- calculate) his army to allow for the unexpected threat.

It goes like this
Player A   "I am using German infantry company 1943. However I am adding in a captured Churchill crocodile"
Player B "Thanks for telling me. Can you give me a list of what is in your company. Then i can re-calculate my force to allow for you not using the Book list"

Hope that makes the games run better and with a fair play accent.
I am sure other things will arise out of this discussion.

Just off to paint up two Tiger II for my US paras.

[Sean Clark]

I think in games at home and with both parties consenting, anything is up for grabs so long as everyone enjoys themselves.

At game days where you might be playing someone you be never met before, I think you should stick to the architect book so it is a level playing field. If there is an argument that on Friday 12th March 1944, Otto Krump captured a Sherman and blew up a Chruchill with it before being knocked out on the Saturday, then I'd say the other player has the right to veto the use of the Sherman in a German army for instance.

I don't know of many other rulesets that would allow this in more formal play. Ersatz Panthers in the Ardennes are a different case in point as they were merely disguised as something else.

Lend lease schemes are already catered for I think?

[Smoking gun]

Player B, could say "you can use the model of a crocadile but we'll count it as a flam panzer iii or a char B flam your choice."

I think the germans captured more shermans and t34's than any other tank but german players don't tend to want to field those instead of panthers or tigers. Captured equipment can be substuted for an equivalent item quite easily.

Not having seen the PBI company and points lists I'm not familar with the "adjustment" options Martin mentioned.

Regards,

Martin Buck

[Colonel Kilgore]

Martin,
If you have yet to try PBI, you don't know what you're missing!
I found it initially somewhat overwhelming when reading through the rules, but only a core of these is needed in any given game, and even I find I can remember them pretty well even playing occasionally.
There are some sample lists in the main rules, so you could try these first and then get the lists if you like them?
As with other RFCM games, Mr Pig's videos of specific rule mechanisms are really helpful.
Go on - give it a go!
Simon

[John Watson]

Sean, I thought I was the only person to know of Martin Krump's exploits in the War!
Seriously though, I have often wondered if the use of captured material, be it tanks or artillery, should come with a "user unfamiliarity" penalty of some sort. Maybe a minus on shooting, or a roll to see if the driver stalls the tank when trying to move off.

[Smiley Miley 66]

Can I say, state one thing. Realism. I wouldn't use my captured Panther unless I am using my Churchill's of the 6th Armoured Brigade. Like last weekend. I wouldn't use it if it was pre October 1944, as this is when it got captured after the Battle of Overloon.
So if you are going to use captured vehicles the units you are using must have some relation to those captured vehicles and the timeline of the game must also have a baring on if these can be used.
For some reason certain people seem to think tanks are game changers, they can be when used in connection with everything else on the board. PBI especially 1943 plus is an All Arms game, that is All units Support each other. If one fails the rest can topple, like my tanks last weekend out on their own in a town next to enemy infantry; and no support infantry.
The current PBI is the best WW2 game around as it has this All Arms support structure in the game. You must have so much infantry, then support weapons ( mortars,MMG, Armour etc) but in certain amounts to the infantry ( PBI plebs) on the table. You cannot field 3+ Tiger tanks in a game unless you have enough infantry to balance the total guns total allowed. It's all there.
Then there is the realism, reality and sensibility.
I know the force I put out last week, if we were doing Normandy/France pre September 1944, I couldn't have fielded it. But September/October 1944 and After I could.
It's knowing your history, and the forces you are fielding.
Miles

[Smoking gun]

Hi Simon,
I did play a demo game of PBI at the York show a few years ago. The main stumbling blocks are I'm in Grimsby the birth place of Rapid Fire, 20mm is the most common scale amassed over the past 40 odd years, although some at Grimsby Wargames Soc are now using 10mm for Blitzkrieg Commander, which I prefer to  Rapid Fire. The other gaming group, in a friend's wargames building on the road I live on, play Iron Cross in both 28mm and 20mm.

Both clubs tend to play multiplayer games on large tables.

So I'm reluctant to try and introduce a new, small scale game to the groups I play with. Hobby money is also very tight as I was made redundant three years ago and have to make do on a small pension.

Regards,

Martin Buck

[martin goddard]

I can partially agree with you Miles.
Historical realism is good.

Let me give some useful thoughts on the matter. I will use my limited knowledge of WW 2 to help the discussion along.  Do correct me if my knowledge is lacking



I would have thought that the excellent Panther gun with Zeiss sights might be used for shooting at distant targets like buildings?
In the same vein, a Churchill crocodile was not really used as a reconnaissance tank.  You need to read up  on their use Miles.  Crocodiles were used primarily against fixed targets.

Are there any instances of a reconnaissance tank force being made up of a flame tank, close support tank and a Panther? Did Cromwell CS tanks work in the same troop as Crocodiles. I don't know?


A reconnaissance unit would use armoured cars and highly mobile vehicles. This would include 15cwt type 4x4 trucks. Very popular with the British.  Germans had their own lighter vehicles.
The Germans even had special vehicle types specifically for reconnaissance.
I would be horrified to think that players believed Churchills, Panthers and Cromwells were part of reconnaissance formations.


Reconnaissance is not expected to take part in frontal fights.
Armoured cars are faster, especially on roads. Thus the reconnaissance unit could scout things out and then report back. Alternatively a reconnaissance unit might also "shadow" opponent movements.  Their speed gives them the chance to withdraw more quickly than a reacting enemy might advance upon them.

A Churchill crocodile is even slower than a normal Churchill because of the trailer. Therefore it was never used with reconnaissance units.

I thought you would be better off with some armoured cars for a reconnaissance unit.

I also agree that some players see tanks as game changers.
They choose big and powerful tanks in order to have the biggest gun. Added to this, flame tanks and high HE tanks are popular with such gamers too.

I too, often choose a tanks with big guns because they do give a firefight advantage.

Don't think we are going to agree about reconnaissance Miles. I accept that  WW2 was very complicated in terms of formations and vehicle usage.    Crocodiles might well have been used for reconnaissance, your expertise on the matter is greater than mine I expect
Anyway, just thoughts. Let's not fall out over this difference of opinion.

[Stewart 46A]

Martin buck, you can use 20mm for PBi, 6" squares may look small, use 8" squares.
A standard PLtoon may be
Platoon Cmd base
3 x LMG bases
6 x rifle bases
1 x light mortor base
1 x anti-tank rifle/bazooka base
So you don't need to change scale to try the game
A full game takes about 3 hours


Stewart

[Sean Clark]

I see this as an interesting discussion and different opinions are allowed, hopefully without offence being taken.

The scale of PBI is the important factor for me. I know next to nothing about WW2, but I do know the game represents a company action, a small part of a likely much larger formation operating elsewhere.

PBI does cater for the all arms aspect of company games. In specific historical scenarios when the historical OOB can reflect oddities.

For me it's about keeping the playing field level for formal game days and sticking to the rules as written unless prior agreement with an opponent.

This is  not meant to upset any one, but just my own opinion .

[Smiley Miley 66]

I was using the Motorised infantry. I deployed the HQ Squadron which the Panther was part of, with a Churchill CS. The Churchill Crocodile was an attachment from the Royal engineers so could be attached to any army unit that required to use the 75mm gun and Hull mounted flame gun as required.
Yes the Panther is a good tank, but actually the British CS tanks are better against the infantry when firing its main weapon.
The 75mm on a Panther like the 17pdr on a Firefly fires it's Shell is fired  on a Flat trajectory, which against another tank is fine. But it cannot "Lob" it's shells into a building like a Sherman 75mm which causes more damage to that said object.
Also in the rules even if the Panther does fire its 75mm at infantry it can only kill 1 base if that base doesn't save itself. The Churchill 75mm 2 bases the Churchill 95mm 3 bases. The main reason I deployed the Panther was because of other tanks like the Panthers I was up against with my opponents. if I had had an Achilles with me that would have been the replacement. It's not often I can deployed "Cuckoo" in its right historical time.
Stewart will testify that actually the Panther sitting on the objective against a load of Ginger Bread men didn't fair well, it was only a matter of time before it succumbed to the overwhelming odds.
(It was the Tank that crumbled and the Snowman that took the biscuit !)
Even the previous game against Ben,The Panther was only holding off the on coming Panthers. It was the 2 Churchill's with Support from the INFANTRY that won the game. Remember when you assault (Or assaulted) with a Churchill, when the Square is a Building or Wooded you don't get the extra armour bonus either.
So these are Not war winning or Game changing as you think. It is Still the Infantry that are the game changers.
You want to talk Game changers it's the Panzershrecke is the big game changer. How it can stand face to face 1-2 Squares away and blow a tank off a board. Deploying Churchill's does give me a chance to survive these. In having the same amount of dice each, once he has hit me. Trying to survive 9 dice especially if it's a side shot is very hard. Ben will testify that my Churchill crocodile sent most of the game recovering rather than actually firing. Luckily I had a Platoon of infantry in Support. If I had Sherman's through out the tank wouldn't last 5 minutes on the table.
It's always has been and always will be the INFANTRY on the table that win the game. Everything else is there to support them.
Also a decent Roll with the Dice at the right time.
Why do you think I use a C130 as a helicopter in AK47. All those guns on the model ? But it's only an MG or tank gun in the game though ?
Looks can be deceiving Infantry Rule the table everything else is matter of fact, "Boots on the Ground"
Miles

[martin goddard]

Looks like I will have to give up on this Miles.

Thanks for explaining how the rules work too. Useful.
Not a great problem for me, just have whatever you like Miles.

It does mean that you and I cannot play PBI together though.
I am sure  we can schedule it so that we can be in the same competition but not be matched against each other.

[Stewart 46A]

Hi Miles, yes your tanks looked big and scary but against my panzerfaust armed snowmen and panzerschreck armed gingerbread men they were just so much scrap metal. I don't think my Abominable Panther monsters got many shots off?
Good game, you came close to winning but came 2nd instead.
My snowmen ran away from your flame throwers because they didn't want to melt.
See you at the weekend

Stewart

[Smiley Miley 66]

What do you mean Martin ?
The only reason I put a captured Panther out is because it was Historically correct to the force I put out that day.
As I pointed out the Panther was in no way a Game changer, it never dominated the field in any way ? In fact if Ben had had time he would have destroyed my Panther ( or which ever Tank was there ) with his 2  Panthers !, if it had been an Archilles or a Sherman Firefly I would have been in the same position.
Yes I deploy an engineer platoon which is very accceptable in the rules, as this makes up for most companies getting a lot of their Veterns into one platoon to act as an assault platoon armed mainly with SMG, and 2 flame throwers, so I am historically correct with that. Within reason the only other to do that is to have 1-2 platoons as regular and another veteran in the same force which is not acceptable, so I made them Regular Assault Engineers which added to 2 deployed platoons Is acceptable
Against the correct opponents, Dave and Ben were fielding Germans and Stewart was fielding Finish that fought along the German Border of late 1944.
I am happy to drop my Panther if it is So Offensive to players if that is what is wanted.
I can replace it with another Churchill 75mm gun tank or 6pdr gun tank or an Archilles, as thes are all correct to a June 1944 plus British NW Europe force. ( 6pdr was regarded as a better A/T weapon than the British 75mm )
If I had been fighting Italians or Japanese or in Italy/Balkans ?  I would have fielded a different set of supporting tanks, which would of consisted of Sherman based force.
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

To be honest having Big tanks doesn't always work, I remember a game me and Martin had. I fielded my NW Europe Churchill's ( as that was all I had at the time) against an Italian force and was left for dead.
Even in another game system I played recently because the Italians can have nearly twice as many tanks as the British, I found I couldn't kill them faster enough to get a chance to win the game.
Miles