Having played a bit of SB recently I have made a list of things that I feel need mentioning in order to clarify the game.
These are not changes but things that I believe can easily be forgotten
The task
A . Have I said it correct?
B. What else can we add to help players.
Clarifications????
14th October 2022
1. When an infantry or cavalry unit falls to just half a base it is removed from the game. It has disintegrated.
2. Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
3. A support square can be claimed if a square contains any bases at all. This would include just half a base too.
4. Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
5. The score need for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square. one diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
6. Squares can be temporarily overfilled whilst movement is happening.
7. Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
8. Defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
9. Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
Thank you
martin :)
Thanks Martin
Just a clarification to the clarifications:
No1 says when a unit get down to half a base it disintegrates and is removed but point 3 says support can be given by a unit that is half a base strong. Can you clarify which it is?
Cheers
Derek
Good point Derek
The half base might be a half MG or artillery gun.
1. When an infantry or cavalry unit falls to just half a base it is removed from the game. It has disintegrated.
2. Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
3. A support square can be claimed if a square contains any bases at all. This would include a half base MG or damage gun/ armoured car too.
4. Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
5. The score need for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square. one diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
6. Squares can be temporarily overfilled whilst movement is happening.
7. Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
8. Defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
9. Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
Once we're done on this, we can post them as an "enduring" set of clarifications in the relevant thread.
There is something else at the back of my mind about a damaged / half-base MG that I think is different to point #3 below. Any ideas?
Simon
Not sure Simon.
Someone can pass light on this??
I will include these clarifications in pdf SB and put it on the website too, along with the downloads
martin :)
Hello Martin,
I am very surprised by Point 3, because we always played in accordance to the rule specified page 50 : "Artillery and MG do not count as support", although I always thought it a bit weird and frustating, as the role of artillery and MGs is precisely supporting other troops...
So, can you please confirm that ANY KIND of base can count as a support?
Thanks in advance,
Pierre
ROFLMAO.
sorry Martin, did I open a can of worms for you.
Derek
I thought support squares need "more than 1 base in total" see page 49, notes bullet point 3?
ROFLMAO what does that stand for Derek? Not seen that one.
Don't worry Derek you have not opened anything.
It was martin who put out a list of items to be corrected and commented on.
It is an "open session" on getting clarifications listed down.
I think that Pierre is correct.
As I said . It has been a long time since I played.
Hence why I thought some clarifications would be really useful.
Obviously a good idea.
Keep the comments coming and it will help us get a list of useful clarifications.
If it gets to 40 or more then that is still fine.
Do add any thoughts that will be useful to players too.
It is often too easy to forget details and mechanisms.
I will keep re publishing the list until we all think it is useful.
Thanks for the input so far.
martin :)
1. When an infantry or cavalry unit falls to just half a base it is removed from the game. It has disintegrated.
2. Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
3. A support square can be claimed if a square contains a total of 1.5 base or more. Do not include MG and artillery.
Damaged tanks and AC count as half bases. Support squares still count, even if they are involved in their own fight, withdrawal etc.
4. Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
5. The score need for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square. one diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
6. Squares can be temporarily overfilled whilst movement is happening.
7. Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
8. Defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
9. Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
10. Higher command can move left or right, but that will prevent it using any command rolls that turn.
martin :)
Not sure why Artillery and MG,s don't count in total for Support Squares? Have so far assumed they could,!
The rules say trenches have reduced effect if attacked from flank or rear?
Hasty defences only if attacked from rear?
Quote1. When an infantry or cavalry unit falls to just half a base it is removed from the game. It has disintegrated.
Not in the rules.
Quote2. Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
Correct - as long as the scenery has 'an effect on shooting' in the LOS of sight section
Quote3. A support square can be claimed if a square contains any bases at all. This would include just half a base too.
Its has to be more than 1 base to count. In answer to the MG and ART, there is a decrepancy here ... It doesn't say this in the rules, but does mention it in a diagram. We normally allow MGs in support its a great support weapon - and it makes no sense. As its RAW... if not RAI :-)
Quote4. Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
We normally play that yes.
Quote5. The score need for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square. one diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
Correct
Quote6. Squares can be temporarily overfilled whilst movement is happening.
Correct. You can leave it overfilled - but your opponent gets to push which ones we wants back a square towards your baseline (p41)
Quote7. Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
This is not clear , and you clarified in the FAQ Martin here - https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=392.0 (https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=392.0)
So that is how we play it
Quote8. Defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
Hasty Defences - Yes
Quote9. Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
Correct... if by committed you mean 'leaves the square' to assault. Once
one is in there is no stopping
Note there is a FAQ already for SB so any 'new' items can go there
https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=392.0 (https://rulesforcommonman.uk/index.php?topic=392.0)
Martin asked:
"ROFLMAO what does that stand for Derek? Not seen that one."
Rolling On Floor Laughing My A**e Off
Neil
Thank you Neil. I need to get in touch with popular culture more(?)
Thank you Simon. Lots of info there. I will get that sorted and come back with a new set of thoughts.
We will get there.
PBI games for me tomorrow though.
martin :)
Quote from: Julian Bonny on October 14, 2022, 04:09:25 PM
if machine guns dont provide support then i cant see the point in playing the game tbh
Julian
Whilst I agree that thematically it would seem appropriate to allow MGs to count as support, Ive played the game for many years and enjoyed it wothout counting them.
I would support going with the diagram that uses MG in support. Its very thematic to have MGs used in this way, particularly in assaults. The effect of MGs on the First World War battlefield was way more significant than the rifle. Guns too for that matter. It would be a simple inclusion in an amendment sheet.
Quoteits not a ww1 game if these weapons are bit part players.
MGs are
the most important element of this game
QuoteThe whole game is about converging numbers of dice onto specific squares in the assault and support of.
I'm not sure I agree with this . Have you played the game Julian ?
I have played for years and never noticed the text in the box!
Have always assumed guns and Mg's contributed to support square count, but as you need more than one to count as a support square, it is very rare, for a square to meet the criteria without an infantry or cavalry unit present.
If only artillery and Mg's are present, they don't tend to last long under fire!
I find the key to any battle is Infantry! Never can have enough, and point barrages!
My Tchankas normally get wreaked by artillery long before they have an impact, or have to dismount to hold an objective.I
Great club favourate.
I always send my armies out to battle without spraying with varnish. Spray varnish has ruined too many of my figures in the past. I now hand paint varnish on my figures. I have just discovered a matt varnish that is far and away the best I have ever used. It is the one produced by Green Stuff World.
It didn't occur to me that MORE than 1 base is required for support, therefore a lone MG wont count. But maybe if MG's are allowed in support if you have 2 in a square on their own then they could count?
There are plenty of examples of a MG company laying down suppressive fire to allow an assault to go in and prevent any counter attacks forming up. As it stands, 1 MG stand represents 5 actual guns. A MG company had 10 guns, so it sort of makes sense that 2 or more MG stands in a square could count as support, whereas a lone MG stand (half a company) would be insufficient to count as support.
Hello Julian
Sorry about your decision.
I can appreciate that you are really annoyed about the MG thing as it makes the game not worth playing for you.
I feel guilty about your having wasted money.
To that end I will offer a refund if that helps calm the situation?
Just send back the tchankas and I will send a refund if that works for you?
martin :(
Support
I think folk are not understanding the idea of support in SB.
I will try to correct that.
Support does not mean "shooting into the opponent square" with some shooting. The men shooting into the opponent square are those in the assaulting square, not those distant from that sqaure.
It means that men launching an assault benefit by seeing other mobile men nearby.
This is psychology and military expectation (other units of foot moving up with us= good. No other foot units anywhere near = bad)
Each square is 360m in width.
If troops see a body of men within 360m they are comforted and encouraged by the thought that those men are there to help them (support). Those supporting men can move to help reinforce a push forward or even a fall back.
This is why the modifier for assault supporters are worth more.
MG and guns are stationary weapons , unable to surge into joining an assault.
They are really good when being assaulted but are not mobile assault units.
The MGs were positioned to hold an area not storm it?
Hope that helps???
martin :)
Clears the issue up perfectly Martin, thank you!
It is worth remembering the scope of the game. The standard game represents a divisional assault. This is a higher level game than something like PBI. Happy with the explanation and I shall go on planning how I'm going to fight off the White hordes next weekend.
Julian,
Lets arrange to meet up for a game with your Manhkovist army. I know you haven't had chance to play yet. I think a couple of games will help sort things out.
Sean
So what is the outcome?
1. Can Field Guns support?
2. Can MGs support?
3. How many bases in a square counts as support?
John
From a good read through of the rules today...
1. MGs and Field Guns do NOT provide support as per the picture box on page 49.
2. A support square needs MORE than 1 base to count as support. In other words 1.5 bases or more. This is in the text above the picture box on page 49.
I am still not convinced about the support squares.
If it represents bodies of men able to rush in then the bar is set too low at more than one base! That's about a Coy of men supporting what could be a Brigade? Whats the difference between that and the sight of a coy of guns and MG's? it's about the same manpower?
I am happy with the concept of support squares being a measure of " we are part of a bigger push, with reserves and Or supported flanks" or in defence " we are not alone". Anything friendly could help that.
Therefore suggest if the MG's and Field guns don't count then there should be more than 2 bases in the square to count as support?
Thanks for the responses.
I must remind folk of what I am achieving here (?).
The aim= to make a list of reminders and clarifications to help players like myself who may have forgotten the finer points.
I have done this before for other rulesets that we have plunged back into.
There might be a new edition one day but not at the moment.
Rules changes are always a good point for discussion though and I support that area of activity.
I do say sorry for this topic causing some upsets. SB is "only a game" though and not worthy of falling out over ( I hope).
martin
All clear, thank you Martin.
These clarifications of the rules are a very worthy activity leading up to the Square Bashing Day extravaganza.
Simon
Reminders version 16th October 2022
1. Infantry and cavalry units can fight/play on until totally destroyed.
2. Units can shoot diagonally for 1 square of range. This shooting cannot be between 2 objects ( scenery, units etc).
3. A support square can be claimed if a square contains a combined total of 1.5 foot/cav bases or more. Do not include MG and artillery.
Damaged tanks and AC count as half bases. Support squares still count, even if they are involved in their own fight, withdrawal etc.
4. Each unit must finish all of its movement before another unit is considered.
5. The score needed for higher command orders is the same or greater than the distance from higher command to square. One diagonal is allowed. Scenery and other interventions make no difference.
6. Squares can be temporarily overfilled whilst movement is happening.
7. Artillery can shoot over intervening units.
8. Hasty defences count full effect from all direction except the rear.
9. Once a first unit is committed to an assault the inability of other units to join it cannot stop the assault.
10. Higher command can move left or right, but that will prevent it using any command rolls that turn.
11. Applying hits.
SHOOTING= target chooses location of 1st hit only.
FIGHTING= target chooses location of first 2 hits only.
12. HITS, Apply up to 2 hits per unit. After 2 hits applied to each unit, then further hits can still be added to the units.
13. Units can join in an assault even if they come from different start points. e.g a face touching infantry unit can assault and be joined by cavalry from two squares away. This also means that infantry might enter the square and still count as "other unit".
How is this going?
martin ???
QuoteI am happy with the concept of support squares being a measure of " we are part of a bigger push, with reserves and Or supported flanks" or in defence " we are not alone". Anything friendly could help that.
Therefore suggest if the MG's and Field guns don't count then there should be more than 2 bases in the square to count as support?
I concur with this. Having seen 3 x half bases acting as a support square its doesn't feel right. There is also the difference in support between assaulters and defenders support (IMHO) ... In Walter Schnaffs we changed this so only 'at strength' units could act as support. But in WW1 support squares for
defenders not counting MGs support just seems odd (IMHO). For assaulters its a better argument for 'more men' .. But id say only 'at strength'. Packets of shattered battalions lurking around the rear doesn't quite feel right
Quote10. Higher command can move left or right, but that will prevent it using any command rolls that turn.
higher command comes first, so subsequent movement is moot
Quote11. Applying hits.
SHOOTING= target chooses location of 1st hit only.
FIGHTING= target chooses location of first 2 hits only.
2 also applies to barrage as well. This often asked
Always find these rules clarifications to be a useful reminder. Thank you.
regards,
Nick
Sorry, but I am still not clear.
Is it right that you need 1.5 bases of infantry and/or cavalry to count as support?
Gun and MG bases do not count as support?
John
As written in the rulebook, yes.
Its good that there is discussion and thoughts of other eays to play. As Simon C has said, at his club, they allow MGs in support and it sounds like they are considering only allowing 'at strength' units to count.
This is great. First it shows interest in a set of rules now 10 uears old. Secony, it shows creativity and different ways of thinking.
Once you buy the rules, they are yours to use however you like. Add rules in, take some away. No one will say you're wrong.
Clearly though when players come together from different clubs, you need to stick to what is written f9r clarity - unless there is agreement between both players.
Simon has managed to run quite a few Squarebashing days (for which we all thank him!) and we have managed to have a good days gaming with the rules as written. Long may that continue.
Once this thread has run its course I'll add them to the FAQ pages here. If Martin wants to take on the mantle and create a PDF that is fine too. But the FAQ is what we use at the SB days for any such discrepancies.
Yes Simon . If you can add it to the FAQ that would be great. I will add it to the website too. Thank you.
No worries John.
This will help.
1. Ignore any MG or artillery bases.
2. Then count the number of bases present in the square, summing them into to a single cumulative total. damaged tanks and AC only count as half bases.
Undamaged AC and tanks count as whole bases.
The important thing here is the total rather than where the parts are from.
3. Once the count has finished. Total of 0, 0-5, 1 is not enough. Total 1.5, 2, 2.5.......etc = support.
e.g.
A square contains 1.5 bases of an infantry unit, 1 base of a cavalry unit and an artillery gun.
The gun is ignored.
The remaining bases add up to 1.5 + 1= 2.5. This is enough for support to be claimed.
e.g.
A square contains an MG base, a half cavalry base and an artillery base.
The MG and artillery bases are ignored. This leaves the half cavalry base.
This is not enough to count as support.
e.g. A Square contains a tank and a damaged AC. This counts as 1.5 bases too.
That should help (?)
martin :)
Nearly there.
I rather like Simon's ideas on support. In Walter Schnaff's that is exactly how a mitrailleuse is used. Keep them hidden and use them to support against a Prussian assault. When used offensively in a gun line they tended to be shot to pieces by Prussian artillery, not having the range to counter, thus they have no ranged fire action in the WS variant.
However WWI machine guns are a different kettle of fish. I tend to game mostly 1914 so only heavy machine guns are available. They were a bit on the weighty side to be carried into an offensive, but were extremely effective in defensive positions. I am thinking here of the way the machine gun on the bridge at Mons was used. I do not think it unreasonable to count a machine gun as a support weapon for a defender. I can also see Simon's point about needing at least two full bases of infantry or dismounted cavalry to count as effective support in both defence and attack. The same should also apply to mounted cavalry, if they have actually made it into a melee, which did happen a few times in 1914.
Think the last time we played a proper game of SB was at Nothe Fort. Be nice to see another big game spread over multiple tables, Mons as previously mentioned would be good to play like that.
D&B
Oh no. Andy is machine gunning kettles full of fish. Didn't spot that in the rules. Do fish in kettles count as support? Is a kettle with machine holes in it a half base?
Seriously though, thanks to Sean and Martin for clarifying.
John
It's my latest fishing method. Machine guns instead of rods. Saves an awful lot of time spent under green umbrellas.
Quote from: Leman (Andy) on October 17, 2022, 11:22:28 AM
It's my latest fishing method. Machine guns instead of rods. Saves an awful lot of time spent under green umbrellas.
🤣😂 a more miserable way to pass the time I cannot imagine!
Well, when you are a little puzzled about something it is best to return to the actual rules and have a re-read. Lo and behold there in the defenders factors for assaults are those for machine guns present in the defender's square. After the attackers assault has taken place any other machine guns the defender has available get to fire, either at the attackers, if they are still around, or at those attempting to support the attackers. Ruling out machine guns as supports probably makes it more of a game, and they do get to fire in the next step of the turn sequence.
QuoteAfter the attackers assault has taken place any other machine guns the defender has available get to fire, either at the attackers, if they are still around, or at those attempting to support the attackers. Ruling out machine guns as supports probably makes it more of a game, and they do get to fire in the next step of the turn sequence.
ALL caveated by the fact as long as its not in a square assaulted.
But the same also applies to all MG, Guns and Infantry
The FAQ has been updated with the clarification that MGs and Guns do not count for support bases. The other items LOS, overhead shooting, allocating hits are already on the FAQ.
The other items are pretty much covered in the rules
Thanks for doing this, Simon - and it all fits neatly onto a double side of A4!
Simon