Ok so what's the opinion of the new release of the Warlord Epic ACW range and what are the ideas behind the range?
Is this competition for 15mm metal figures or good to get more people interested in the ACW and playing war-games?
They are a very different style of war-games figures. So what are the thoughts?
My thoughts are only my own.
I think they are making a "whole new game" in terms of figures, rules and marketing.
It is probably aimed at creating a new cadre of ACW players playing Warlord ACW.
This seems to have worked well for their cruel seas and black sails ranges.
It works for them so that is good all round.
These new players will get all their stuff from Warlord. Good marketing.
It will have no effect for better or worse on PP ACW sales.
martin :)
I am very cynical about Warlord Games. They seem to like producing game systems that appear to be like existing ones, but when you look closely they just don't quite fit. So you either have to go with their system in totality or not. So Cruel Seas, Black Seas, Victory At Sea and ACW Epic all feature models that are incompatible with other ranges either due to their base type or because of the scale of the models differing from those already available. I will confess to having invested in Cruel Seas but I have not touched the others. I think Victory At Sea is a particular con as the game rules already existed for use at 1/2400 or 1/3000 scale. So they have republished with their own "stamp" in 1/1800 scale.
ACW Epic figures seem to be another use by Warlord Games of their own scale. I'm not sure they broadcast exactly what scale they are, but they seem to be somewhere between Kallistra's 12mm and commonly available 15mm such as PP, Essex etc.
Not for me thanks.
John
So John what will be your comments when they move to make ancient's for 'Epic', again in their own scale and style. But again with lots of publicity and marketing, will they not attract new players to the period?
You have picked 'Cruel Sea's' as have a number at the Carantan club and I have joined in with the games. I have not bought into the game but could see the reasons that many would. The games are well presented, the rules are easy to understand, the models and game components attractive.
I agree with Martin it is a new system and will create a new following. It is a new look at the whole way of model making creating large armies at a very low cost using a rule system that is already tried and tested.
If it gets more younger players into historical gaming it must be good.
PP try very hard to attract new younger players into the historical hobby, and so long as they do not feel they are baby sitting will engage young players with enthusiasm, and hopefully some do get hooked on the hobby.
When I have been with our 54mm gaming group we always try to get younger players involved. And this is often at events that may not be war gaming events.
Hopefully some of these may get into war gaming but probably not in 54mm though, but any new recruit is good for the hobby.
Cant say that I will be interested in them. I already have hundreds of 15mm ACW for CWB and TCHAE as well as 10mm for AoF. I suppose that it is a way of introducing people to a period and gaming as a whole at a reasonable cost. I don't know much about theses figures or the rule system though.
Les my beef with Warlord is that they produce games that are incompatible with others. It would be like Martin re-casting all his figures as, say, 22mm. that way they won't mix with anything.
John
There is a look at the figures on the Warlord games facebook page (https://www.facebook.com/WargamesIllustrated/ ) showing the figure together with Kallistra figures.
There appear to be very slightly bigger then those. As I subscribe to wargames illustrated and this months cover "gift" is a sprue of the figures I have used my monthly£5 voucher for some as the ones available to member have already gone. I couldn't find anything else there I wanted so have ordered 2 copies of the magazine for 2 sprues for £9 in total including the postage. That's a dammed sight cheaper than the ones appearing on EBAY at the moment. They seem to be going for that price each.
As I dont have ACW in anything apart from some very old 6mm stuff I may just see how they compare, sizewise" with PP stuff. If its too far out I may do one side in just that together with some Kallistra (6 pack for the cost of 5) and see how it goes. Will still have to get CWB rules though. Can't be robbing Martin's retirement fund too much.
Still have 2 WW1 armies to get done first though. Thats going to be a big job before I start another one.
Derek
My opinion. Everyone will go crazy and buy the starter box. No-one will actually paint the 2000+ figures inside.
The Victory at Sea game is a combination of 2 things that were out there already. The rules have been out there for a few years now. From what I can gather can be scaled up or down very easily. I know the 1/1800 ships were around for sometime as well, I remember seeing them at the Weymouth show one year when it was at the Pavilion. I think it was Mongoose that might have been involved with one or the other or both ?
Someone out there might be able to correct or confirm it ?
Miles.
The problem (if it is one) for makers of "just our size" is that there are so many sizes out there one of them is likely to match.
In this size band there is 2mm,3mm, 5mm,6mm,7mm, 9mm,10mm, 12mm,15mm,18mm,20mm. Perrys tried the 8mm with Napoleonic but that was not expanded.
Starting a new size would have to take into account the possible opposition.
1. Is it so bad that it can be ignored?
2. Could a campaign be launched to convince that nothing can go with the "only buy me" size? 3. 3. Maybe a starter set that is so big that the customer becomes committed? I have spent this much so I might as well continue.
Peter Pig did this with the 1/450th pirate ship range.
I made up a scale that gave ships of the "suits me" tactile size.
Because the range was very specific in its ambition it has worked well for 25 years.
However "worked well" is probably microscopic compared to the output of larger companies.
martin :)
I agree John. Just look what has happened to GW when they pick their own scales and model sizes.
Epic should be shipping over the next few days.
Just grabbed a Confederate Brigade on Ebay for £13.70 (well below RRP). I intend to cut the the strips down to 30mm bases so that may be 4 or 5 abreast depending on how crowded a base will look and see how they compare, size wise, with PP figs. Not sure if I will do 1 or 2 deep. Even so that should get me around 100 bases of infantry which is more than enough I should think for now. I am amazed how expensive their booster boxes (cav, dismounted cav, skirmishers, gun limbers) are. I have noted form a few vids on UTube how many people think the samer. And they have just added a price rise as well.
Depending on the look, for size, all the other stuff I need (see in brackets above) will come from PP. If the difference in size is too great may well be Kallistra. I will post some comparision piccies once I have a couple based.
Derek
There is a chap on YouTube, vlogging his progress with Epic ACW and he uses Peter Pig to supplement what's in the big box. Price wise, there's no comparison for those expansions. Peter Pig are way cheaper.
Not at £13.70 for 1000 infantry. OK, going to have to do some work splitting them up and they are almost all in the same pose but ....... .Thank god for the 3 foot rule.
As I said, the remainder of the troops needed to make an army will probably come from PP anyway as I like them.
Derek
I wasn't talking about the figures in the box. I'm talking about the expansions for Zouaves and Cavalry.
Also, check how many spokes are on the wheels of the artillery.
I think Warlord wanted their range to be independent of all others.
Have they succeeded?
I don't know, because their target is not publicly known.
They may have achieved their target already, in terms of boxes sold.
Their customers are bending over backwards to make it work in terms of slicing, converting and painting.
That shows Warlord has a very loyal following. Good luck to them.
martin ???
The spokes on the artillery carriage is only minor compared to the fact that every single gun barrel is an 1840s 12lb howitzer. Surely the 1859 Napoleon 12lb gun/howitzer would have been the glaringly obvious gun to do if only one was going to be produced. In the 1960s even Airfix got that right.
Retail price in Australia = ouch.
(https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/710402030707015780/866271090141298718/image0.png)
Wow!
It feels like a drug dealers' business model: lure the punters in with cheap stuff initially, then bump up the prices...
Simon
Sad but true. I wouldn't dream of paying the RRP for the Warlord products. Far too expensive for what they are but couldn't resist a bargain from your fav auction site. Not even considering buying cav, etc from them unless another bargain pops up.
That pricing is utterly bizarre.
Anyone found 3D printed figures for this scale?
Finally had time to get a unit done. I think they look quite good for speed painting.
They split up nicely with only minimal trimming. I can get 10 bases per sprue and have plenty of 2 men bit left over for half bases/Skirmishers etc. I know its twice as many figures per base as normal but the lines just seem to work for me.
The AK47 bases is PP figs and just to show actual size.
What do you guys think.
Derek
(https://i.postimg.cc/TK0Q7tG6/DSC-0236-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TK0Q7tG6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bS19QTL4/DSC-0237-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bS19QTL4)
They look good enough for a solid line of infantry on a wargames table and with the speed of painting probably quite a good buy. Nice looking but not sure they would work do other basing types such as AK 47.
Mike
That's the next project after AK47.
Have a brigade box for each side plus a couple of sprue's (all courtesy of EBAY so a LOT cheaper than RRP) so that should give me about 5 Brigades per side plus plenty of guns. Have the rules on order now so will see if I even need Cavalry.
May need to get to work on my vertical gaming board so I can get a few solo games in first.
Derek
They look fine Derek, do you find they are a bit small, therefore hard to see and paint. Really difficult to texture the base between the two ranks.
Quote from: Julian Bonny on August 09, 2021, 09:21:49 PM
We are in sync then Derek :)
Ive got the rules and slowly soaking them up at the moment. Cavalry doesnt seem that important. A novelty brigade here or there seems the normal. The historical scenario battles require some cavalry units, more than might appear in a normal game.
Im looking forward to playing it.
Julian
Julian,
Miles typically organises a CWB day each year. We have great fun. The last one I attended I think had 5 tables. All of us were playing slightly different versions, misremembering rules and taking mechanisms from other Peter Pig rules and adding them in.
I suspect this is because we're all old and can't remember what we are doing.
CWB is a fantastic game giving a divisional (or 2) sized battle that plays out in a couple of hours so great for a club night. The historical scenarios are fun too, and include some that you won't find anywhere else. White Oak Road for instance, which was around a week before the surrender at Appomatox.
One of the best mechanics is the falter test, which also appears in Washingtons Army for the AWI.
Highly recommended. (But then I'm biased!)
Quote from: Leslie BT on August 09, 2021, 09:33:32 PM
They look fine Derek, do you find they are a bit small, therefore hard to see and paint. Really difficult to texture the base between the two ranks.
Not really. I painted the front rank on the base and the rear rank on painting sticks. Hardest part was trying to get the glue for the flock in between without getting too much on the feet/legs. I found the figures quite detailed and sharply defined making them easy to paint. With my unsteady hands and failing eyes only did belt/cross-belts and pouches in black (don't know if that is right and don't really care), a few random trousers in either light blue, mustard or light brown, same with hats. Little bit of flesh on face/hands, dark red/brown for the muskets and a line of black for the barrels.
Its a shame though. I only remembered I hadn't given them a dunk in magic wash after I had flocked the bases. May give them a coat with a fat brush to raise a bit more detail.
One thing I did notice though some definatly carry the weapons with barrels forward and some carry them with barrels facing the back. I don't know if this is deliberate ior accidental or if this reflects reality or not. It6 does help to provide a little variety though. Its a shame all the figure are in the same basic pose with a few minor variations on the legs but fascial variation is present. Also by cutting 4 figures into a smaller strip I can get a more random order for hats. As each original strip is 10 figs and 10 strips per sprue I can afford to be a little wasteful. Especially as the left-over figure I can use for other things such as half bases and skirmishers if needed. May even do some bases with just sentries on camp guard etc.
It is a peculiar size that Warlord have gone for, and, despite their assertion of designing it like that because it looks good to them, I am convinced that it was done purely for commercial reasons. Fit with other makes and ranges is a bit of a gamble. The best fit out there appears to be Kallistra, certainly with the infantry and artillery. The mounted cavalry though are much closer to 15mm and completely dwarf Kallistra cavalry. In fact I prefer the Kallistra mix throughout (although PP artillery pieces work very well - I now keep all my guns separate from the crews so that I can mix and match). As for the area between the front and rear rank, my advice is forget it. It's rarely evident when using the fiigures, just make sure the base area between the ranks is very dark, then shove a small amount of texture in from the sides. As stated, the area in the middle is barely noticeable and looks better than having flock go halfway up the figures. As a theatre of operations I prefer the Western theatre and my PP armies are designed as such with each regiment on a single base and using dice frames for relevant information. I use Warlord for two projects - Gettysburg and Antietam, and I am using The scenario books for those battles written by Scott Mingus.
Excellent channel, Julian, thanks for sharing.
Now I have my copy of Pony Wars I will have to get Cavalry, Only choice is which make? Tempted by the Kallistra 6 boxes for 5 offer. Still getting gun limbers from PP though. They seem by far the best looking ones I have seen recently.
I think Kallistra must be very glad this new idea came along. Unless they are overcome with demand. Their sales have probably zoomed up.
Folk who play 15mm ACW seem unaffected by this new scale and continue to buy 15mm.
I suspect there will be a whole mass of 13.x mm stuff on ebay in 1 years time?
But then I am not close or that interested in buyers or players of that scale, so my ignorance is quite big.
martin ???
I think the big pull was the huge amount of basic troop types for not very much money at all. However, funding the other necessary bits is very expensive if using Warlord. As you say Martin, Kallistra may have seen a spike in ACW sales. Which is OK if you like all of your Union troops in full backpack.
Erm..........if using the Warlord figures then all your Union troops are not going to be in full backpacks. As I understand it people are supplementing the Epic stuff with things like Kallistra cavalry, guns, limbers, zouaves and so on. It is no surprise that Kallistra has just produced a range of ACW wagons.
Derek,
I was referring to the Kallistra figures where the Union all have full backpacks. I've no idea what kit the Warlord ones are carrying!
Like you have said, it's an excellent deal especially if using them for something like CWB.
You want to be looking at 3D prints.
None of the Warlord infantry have backpacks. About 50:50 with and without blanket roll and 50:50 with and without kepi. Consequently they all have a late war look. and can be painted as Union or Confederate. In reality I think they are ideal for the Western theatre more so than eastern, but my PP units are already western and based quite differently, so the Yanks from Warlord get 90% black hats for the eastern theatre. 30 odd years ago this would really have concerned me. Now life's too short to be bothered by such trifles.
I really liked the look of the Kallistra figures and a few years ago contemplated using them for Fire and Fury.
But all of them carrying backpacks put me off. The ACW is the only period where one might accuse me of been a rivet counter. More specifically, a spoke counter.
I'm more than happy to use one PzIV as any variant. The only difference I can tell is whether it has a long or a short barrel.
Don't get Sean started on ACW jackets 😱😉😂😂
To be honest accurately depicted wargame models are a joy to paint, but at the end of the day, when you have two largish armies out on the table, an extra three or four inches on a smaller than 15mm Confederate jacket just doesn't really show. Sometimes even PP can make slight errors, as also Osprey. I had my Belgian WWI infantry and my Osprey MAA showing exactly how to paint them, but then came across a little bit of info added to the Osprey, evidently after the artwork commission had been completed, i.e. the shelter tent strapped around the backpack was discontinued in 1913. Well my 1914 Belgians never got that message, and still look great for all that.
Slowly getting on with the Warlord Games ACE troops but running into a minor issue. Running out of command base figures. Each sprue can make 10-12 bases (if you use the left over figures - I use 2 strips of 4 troops so 2 figs left over). Ok, not read the rules yet but from what martin said a unit would be 6-7 or so bases.
Have received a pack of their command pack giving me enough to base up (pack contains 6 Standard bearers 7 drummers, 9 officers, 4 mounted standard bearers and 4 mounted command figures). Quite nice miniatures but definitely 12,mm figs!
Small looking against the warlord ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3hWcd02/DSC-0115-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3hWcd02)
However, if placed on a stirrer (no advertising for which coffee shop it came from). I think it looks reasonable size wise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WD7P1cjv/DSC-0116-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WD7P1cjv)
What do you reckon guys? Phone camera does NOT do well with close ups :(
derek
Here is a piccy of the warlord next to a PP fig I have handy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVsKQv5p/DSC-0118-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVsKQv5p)
To me they just don't look right together. Yes I know he has an RPG (no reference to the discussion on the AK board). Anyway, I have a Union and a Confed pack so that will be plenty. Was lookibng at doing mainly the cav from Kallistra using their 6 for 5 deal (pack has 16 cav or 32 dismounted) with Pony wars in mind more than anything else.
Wanted to get a pack to see the cav size but as the command pack has cav in it killed 2 issues with 1 pack. :)
Derek
26 bases done ready for a dunk in Fat Wally's magic wash then base texturing and putting flags on. OH god, I had forgotten how tedious doing mass armies was!
Derek
They're quite a different proposition to the likes of an AK47 army.
I have to disagree with Les on the uniforms. OK, from 3 feet away, the difference between a sack coat and a shell jacket might not be noticeable. But for this is a detail you can get away with in 6mm, but not anything 10mm and above.
Its a bit like saying a Panzer IV will make do as a Panther. Not sure many gamers would happily do this. I understand if we're talking a strap or a belt. But a different coat altogether would be unacceptable in my own armies.
That's not to say I'd ever criticise anyone else mixing these things up. I'd happily play you if your Rebs are in sack coats. It's purely my own pecadillo.
Derek you won't need many cavalry for CWB. Most armies have either none, one or two units. Oh and no RPGs!
John
Awww, I have seen picture of confederate soldiers with them and, and, and....... Oh it was my picture. Ok then, How about some Ak47s instead :o
Cavalry is the last item I will be doing anyway. That may be more for Pony Wars than CWB. But could play a part. Maybe the start of Gettysberg redone.
I seem to be getting a rank of 16 men a day done so thats 4 bases in 2 days. I know it doesn't sound a lot but I find my eyes are aching and the hands start trembling doing much more than this.
As for the wrong coats. PFFFTTTTT I don't care hehehe. I have done a lot of gaming in my youth with either carboard counters or wooden blocks with standard symbols on them. Had a great time with that as well.
Derek
Me too Derek! Home made card figures with crude cowboys and Indians on playing Boot Hill from TSR.
But I've become grumpy in recent years especially regarding the ACW. I reiterate, this is purely for my own collections. I honestly dont care what anyone else does.
The Warlord cavalry are very strange in my opinion. They seem slightly bigger in scale to the plastic infantry, and consequently I am sticking with Kallistra (which I think look less wooden in pose).
The one cavalry figure included on each sprue does look a little large but then again the Kallistra looks a little small.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NK823QTT/DSC-0119-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NK823QTT)
Grey are Warlord the shiny ones are Kallistra the 2 figure on the right are PP figs just for comparison for anyone who hasn't seen them together.
I think I will do the Kallistra for my Cav though based purely on cost but will fit the odd warlord ones into it somehow or other. Maybe a random one here and there amongst the bases. or on command bases. I have 9 sprues per side so would hate to waste 18 cavalry figures.
Derek
I may try one base to see how they look once done. Can always split them afterwards if it looks weird.
Anyway, that's after I have done the foot/guns etc for both sides so probably not before xmas at this rate. Will put a piccy up for the collective strangeness vote once I have them together.
I am already thinking of putting a pieces of thin card under the Kallista foot bases to raise them slightly. They are "chunky" enough to fit in with the Warlord foot but feel a little short for me and don't want the command figures in a unit to be less imposing than the rank and file. (they might think otherwise).
The next question of course would be how many to a base for cav. I just think that 3 makes it too crowded so will probably go for 2. At least this would meet with Pony Wars rules standards.
Derek
Have a look at the Miniature Realms channel on You Tube, where he is using the Warlord figures for a refight of Antietam. He has made some interesting conversions of both the mounted officer and the artillery using cut and glue and greenstuff.
On last few foot bases (that will make 60 foot bases) now for the Confederate forces so need to start turning my attention to the Union force.
I intend to spray blue as the primer and not paint the darker blue tunics, just any adornments.
What manufacturer and colours are suggested?
Derek
Finally getting round to doing some basing. hope to get the rest of the 10 foot units based today.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NLzRsCp3/DSC-0145-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NLzRsCp3)
Then can turn my attention to the guns and generals.
Derek
Thanks Julian
It was only when I was grassing the bases I worked out I had done 480 infantry lol. Unfortunately it does mean I have another 480 to do with the union troops!
Flags this weekend. that will be fun.
Derek
I have 2 sheets of Confed flags. They come with the figures from warlord in the Brigade boxes LOL. will probably have left overs as well :)
Derek
Artillery done. Now working on limbers.
The "management team" are dressed. just need naming and giving flags. Question is should I use real names or made up ones?
(https://i.postimg.cc/PN5HBGjV/DSC-0153-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PN5HBGjV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgPJQBsq/DSC-0154-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgPJQBsq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wR7S3px6/DSC-0155-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wR7S3px6)
Derek
At the risk of subverting this thread, have you all seen that the next thing is Epic Battles: Waterloo...?
Simon
Good luck to them
martin :)
Not going with that one then. Far too many figures needed for Napoleonic armies. Struggling with ACW.
Derek
That website is awesome Julian, you can get the pages translated automatically if you look at your settings in the internet browser.
Miles
I agree. Auto translate is good on this one. Book-marked it.
dEREK
Julian,
If you scroll right to the bottom, a number of sources are listed:
Sources:
Thomas G Rodgers : Men At Arms 448 "Irish American units in the civil war"
Don Troiani "Regiments and Uniforms of the civil war"
Carl Smith Osprey Campaign 63 "Fredericksburg"
Ron Field OSprey 441 Men At Arms "the Confederate Army 1861 - 1865"
Ron Field OSprey 446 Men At Arms "the Confederate Army 1861 - 1865"
Ron Field OSprey 430 Men At Arms "the Confederate Army 1861 - 1865"
Ron Field OSprey 435 Men At Arms "the Confederate Army 1861 - 1865"
Ron Field OSprey 426 Men At Arms "the Confederate Army 1861 - 1865"
Sites internets
un site dédié aux Irlandais durant la guerre civile:
http://irishamericancivilwar.com/
Une belle sélection de drapeaux Irlandais du Nord et du Sud:
http://www.gettysburgflag.com/Irish-Brigades-Regiments.php
Les généraux du Sud et du Nord d'origine irlandaise:
http://www.aoh61.com/history/generals.htm
Simon
Confederate commanders done.
Maj Gen G W Smith
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ppm7Nb8q/DSC-0160-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ppm7Nb8q)
and Brig Generals Toombs and McLaws
(https://i.postimg.cc/v19yLV6J/DSC-0161-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v19yLV6J)
Kallistra figures
Now just gun limbers (not actualy required in the game), casualties and markers to do. Then its time to get blue paint on the fingers.
Oops, just remembered the half bases... Do you guys think hackles will be raised if I do half bases as same frontage but only 1 rank deep?
derek
Wouldn't have thought it would be a problem Derek, as long as they are clearly identifiable as half bases.
John
I am starting to have second thought on doing them this way. I think from the other side of the table they will look to siilar to a full double ranked base. I suppose the only way would be to try a base and set them up for the "5 foot stare"
Derek
YAY, after a 2 month break started on the union force.
Well, had to do a little more on the Reb side. Counted leader bases and found too many on the Union side so did some more union. That will make a total of 14 command bases plus 55 rank and file per side. Think that will be more than enough.
2 Units (1+5) done now.
Derek
Nope, mine are purely generic. Not going down the road of specific Regiments with the correct colours etc.
Sure they will looks good though Julian.
Derek