Long Poles

[John in York]

Just got back from holiday so first chance to look at my reference books.
The caption to the photograph on Page 9 of Osprey's Campaign Book The Ebro 1938 (which shows 3 men with the poles) says "they are probably to help propel the boats across the river".
Can't find any other references.

[Leslie BT]

For those of you who were following this thread probably missed the conclusion of the discussion on TMP.
Martin contacted Lluis of Minairons. He in turn put the word out in Spain.
'No idea Martin, but I'll ask in a Spanish wargaming forum. Perhaps someone there knows.'

'Hi again Martin, I've finally got a couple of likely alternatives:

1 – As you already suggested, these might be bangalore shafts.

2 – However, as the two pole carrying men in the picture are at the column rearguard, someone suggests they could be stretchers --as stretcher bearers used to march at the rear, especially in mountain areas like that.

Cheers,
Lluís'

'Hi Martin, other Spanish forum users confirm these were stretchers. They even could be used as improvised field hospital beds:'

So it looks like the conclusion is that the long poles are part of Stretchers.

[Colonel Kilgore]

Thanks Les - the one thing none of us had guessed!

[Quebec]

I'm certain those soldiers carrying those big poles are stretcher bearers.

[Duncan]

Are they not a thing that in Spain is called a Chuzo which is like essentially a pole about 150cm long. They are used by those who are employed has Sereno, which are sort of Watchmen. They were used for ages from times gone past when they were short pike type things but seem to have become long sticks over the years. Apparently they were used under Franco as a means of keeping people under control. (I don't know but presume by beating them?) There was an official post of a Sereno that was kept until 1977, apparently.

According to Google anyway.

[Colonel Kilgore]

At the risk of reopening this discussion:

• aren't the poles way too long and flexible for stretchers?
• and also too long for Duncan's 150 cm Chuzo?
• and if they were stretcher poles,  they would presumably be carried in pairs?

I think further investigation is called for. ..

[martin goddard]

Agreed.  Stretcher poles look 74% probable but I would like some more evidence please.  Otherwise i will make a pack called "long poles" and they can fulfil a multiple role?

[Duncan]

Looking at pictures of 'chuzos' online it seems they can be anything from a stick with a pike head, to a large paddle shaped head down to just a plain stick and varying in length from something you'd use as a skewer on a BBQ to pole about three meters long so a wide variety of options. Also if they are Chuzo then that would explain why the men holding them are mainly at the back as they would be there to keep order and to stop people slacking and bunking off as they are supposed to be keeping order.

They could be stretchers I guess but I would have thought there would be two per bloke?

Maybe they are multipurpose poles?

[Quebec]

Duncan, your theory is interesting,  but let it go....they are stretcher bearers.  Incidentally, Serenos did not control the population by means of a chuzo. In fact, they were a very effective measure against possible street crime.

[Stewart 46A]

I don't think they are stretchers. They are not carried in pairs and there is no canvas around them. They are also very long and quite thick , so you can't easily grasped in your hand.

[Quebec]

Here are some interesting links on the subject of stretcher bearers (camilleros)


https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/guerra-civil-sanidad-militar/

https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/guerra-civil-sanidad-militar-v/

https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/sanidad-militar-2/

http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com.es/2012/05/la-infanteria-de-linea-3parte-de-el.html

This last link has a Bueno picture of a camillero  in colonial summer uniform 1908-1914

There is a picture of camilleros in each of the links-all of them holding only one pole

[Colonel Kilgore]

I'd not seen those pictures before, Quebec.

All very interesting, and look pretty convincing as an argument to me - thank you!

[John in York]

Yes I think Quebec's evidence is pretty convincing.
I don't think the 'one man one pole' issue undermines the argument at all.
It takes 2 people after all to carry a stretcher. So when you have a casualty find a mate with another long pole and hey presto.

[Duncan]

Are we then going to have a first Q@A pdf update to the new rules then to include something for stretcher bearers if arcade going with that idea? Perhaps the inclusion of a base could help with various kinds of saves ect!

[Leslie BT]

Just put them on your local supports / civilian bases.  But you will have to make them yourself.