Slings and darts

[Moggy]

I may be thinking of the wrong lot from that part of the world but would suggest your named units such as the leopard and Eagle warriors be close order as they possibly were well trained and equiped and were more regimented. Other warriors with spear/shield combinations could be aux troops.

I did google the Atlatl and to my limited viewpoint looks similiar to a spearthrower. As such. this could be fielded in close proximity to others. Without knowing how it was fielded historically, and I feel there is little actual written or pictorial data of it in use, think it probably should just be used as a standard missile weapon. From what I have read its range was about half that of a regular bow and missile velocity also about the same ratio.

To stand any chance to gain the bonus dice during games you would need to have close order troops. I would go with the reasoning that if standing forces were to be upkept these could be treated as close order.

I would suggest that perhaps you use markers or some sort and play a game or 2 out solo trying various combinations to try to get a balance. I did this in the earlier days of C&K revision on a magnetic white board. If you go back in time on the C&K forum you may see what I did. It does work and is a lot cheaper and less labour intensive trying things out.

Due to the lack of written historical records, or any records really from those regions, I feel you could possibly use another similar type army list and just use your own troops into those roles. If you looked at the Egyptians who left a LOT of records its hard to confirm how much was propaganda and how much was fact anyway. After all, Ramasses killed thousands of Hittites himself at Kadesh according to the wall carvings!

Hope that helps.

Derek

[martin goddard]

CK is crying out for a pack of "STINKARDS"  from the WRG Mound builder army (Army number 10).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders

martin

[Stevewales88]

Very helpful Derek. This morning I have been looking up more about the Aztec army and also how it is represented on the wargames table. DBA has the warrior knights as blades, warrior priests as warband, some Psiloi and then Aux or hordes, which supports the idea of close order infantry as the fighting edge. Definitely a good idea to play around with different possibilities first. List C coming up when I get my head round it! I do not have a copy of the playtest rules so I don't know, for example, how Aux shock elite (23 points) would fare against say normal close order foot  (18 points). Aztec seems to have very much liked the atlatl (spear thrower) but also the sling and probably to a lesser extent the bow). Difficult to truly know!
Steve

[Moggy]

Don't worry too much about the playtest rules. They are more tinkering with rules and clarifying things. There are some new elements in the game but they are not life changing. About the only only I can immediately think of that would be important is shooting at a charging enemy coming in.  With this you get an extra shot with any close order and aux missile troops. Your opponent can choose a re-roll. any hits are not counted as hits but reduce your opponents number of dice in the assault by 1 up to a maximum of 3.  This can be very important.

So how do Aux perform?

They fight with 2 dice but gain no bonuses in their own right.  They can take advantage of rear support if the space directly behind them has a minimum of 4 bases.  The difference between them and close order troops is that close order fight with 3 dice. They also gain what is called close order combined if the space they are in, together with the 2 flanking spaces and the rear space have at least 3 other close order units present. This would add a further 2 dice. 

If no rear support is present but the adjacent spaces qualify for the bonus then, together with 2 aux units will add 3 extra dice to the fight over having 3 aux units in the fighting square.  As a combat is won or lost in the number of hits obtained rather than the number of kills the amount of fighting dice is critical. Yes it is dice dependant but bear in mind that you need a 5-6 to hit you can hope for an average of a third being hits.  This means changing 1 aux to a close order should, on average, give you 1 more hit.  That can make all the difference.

The vast majority of troops are classed as unarmoured anyway so you should be on a par with most other armies. They way you beat armoured troops, especially Veterans with huge saves, is in the pursuit rolls after you have won the combat.

As far as your potential army I would suggest a minimum of 4-6 close order units, preferably 6. This way you can field a 1-2-2-1 formation in the central 4 columns where at least your 2 central columns can gain close order combined and the 2 end column can gain if you move a unit sideways (not always as easy as it sounds). By massing a lot of aux troops you should have plenty of units spaces left over by filling these spaces (6 needed to max out space in those spaces) to allow other aux units to either go round, or try to hold a flanks or provide rear support.

Having loads of aux troops allow you to have 1 behind each fighting space together with a skirmisher. This give the rear support bonus of 2 dice but also allows you to swop out damaged units allowing to extend this benefit as long as possible.  Skirmishers in this game are mainly used as damage sponges. Let a skirmish unit lose a base then swap it backwards with another from behind. Still have 4 bases behind and a fresh skirmish unit in the front rank to soak more damage protecting your more valuable close order units.  The save will be the same for skirmishers as shielded unarmoured troops anyway.

Its all in the numbers and playing the averages!



Derek

[Stevewales88]

Oh that is really helpful Derek. The 1-2-2-1 for close order makes things much clearer. Could have 4 units of Eagles, Jaguars, Arrow knights with warrior priests in the centre then 2 other close order backed up by a load of Aux and skirmishers. I was reading this morning about a real life Aztec battle where the knights got stuck in while the rest of the army basically just stood and watched, ready to join in when the chance for glory came! The Aztec also seem to have been fond of outflanking enemies. I wonder how that would work in C&K, although I guess lots  of Aux would help.
Steve

[Moggy]

Being able to outflank in C&K is hard unless your opponent has much fewer troops. This often happens if he has a few more Veterens, Elites or armoured troops. These can be quite expensive but can also turn the battle.  There is only 6 columns width and usually the central 4 is where all the action goes on. These normally have the main battle. Also bear in mind you will only be able to move 1 zone per turn. That's not much when you are only likely to get 4-6 turns before the game ends.

I would suggest that you focus on your battle line until all opponents forces are involved and, provided you have survived the onslaught sneak a few units round the ends of the line. Sometimes a couplke of units of skirmishers can be handy for that to deny battlefield zone points in the end game.

Your may possibly find that you may need to bolster your front line with a few Veterans as well.  Then say to yourself I need 12 units in the front line and another 4 behind. That's 16 you need first then add in skirmishers and I doubt you will have points left over. In fact its quite normal to not be able to field this many units.  My Nubians get close with 11 close order and 4 aux units. I have seen armies fielded with about 12 -14 units. They can quite easily end up swamped.

I tend to steer clear of the flanking move elements of the game. You can only use it whilst there is 20 points left in the countdown clock so that would probably be your second turn, possibly after your first.  You can take 1 unit from a zone and place in any table edge terrain template and do this up to three different units from 3 seperate zones.  I have seen these units get quickly isolated leading to morale issues and make you main line that much weaker. I suppose it can work as the attacker if the terrain works out but I haven't seen that happen often.

[Stevewales88]

Perhaps there could be a page in the rules or army lists with this sort of advice in. Seems  invaluable!
The Aztec were apparently both fond of outflanking and also of using terrain to their advantage. So this is something that seems to be something that I should seek to get a good grip of as it seems most fitting to the Aztec way of fighting.
Many thanks
Steve

[Moggy]

It all stems from a LOT of games of C&K played!  Plus I am a numbers man at heart. Mentally working out factors in my head before doing things. Sometimes it work and....... :/

I would recommend you play some games, even if solo, just to get a feel for the rules. Use markers/counters other figures labelled what they are and just see what works. Most players have their own playstyle, some adapt and some believe in the headlong change no matter what!

You have to bear in mind the ruleset is a very generic one. It doesn't take into account specifics.  A men with a pointy stick or cutty thing the same as a man with a pointy stick or cutty thing from another period and area.

Enjoy. Hope to play with you sometime.

Derek

[Stevewales88]

Just waiting to get my hands on the rules then yes plenty of solo games for me using whatever. I just went through the C&K army lists looking at the example armies and considering them in light of your comment of 16 battleline units. I thought the Lydians were low with just 10 (Byzantines also)  but then I saw the Partians with just 8! The Spartacus army was very interesting with 5 close order, 16 Aux and 10 skirmish units. 31 units total! Apart from the mounted skirmishers the rest of it could easily be close to one interpretation of what an Aztec army might look like.
Steve who wishes his Peter Laing 15mm Gaul army was not lost in the mists of time

[Stevewales88]

Okay, here is the third attempt  Aztec army C

Eagle Knights 1 close order veteran shield impact 30 points
Jaguar Knights 1 close order veteran shield impact 30 points
Arrow Knights 1 close order veteran missiles shield 30 points
Warrior priests 1 close order veteran shield impact 30 points
Other military order 1 close order veteran shield 26 points
8 skirmishers 56 points. 
3 Aux trained shield 33 points
1 Aux trained shield impact 15 points
4 Aux levy missiles shield 32 points
3 Aux levy shield 18 points
Total 24 units 300 points

[Moggy]

Hi Steve

Looks a bit more survivable.

Cross checking the online version of the army lists to the latest version sent direct by Martin has shown a slight difference in points. Shock (which I guess you have called impact) shows as 3 points in the one and 4 in the online version. - Martin - can you confirm which it is please.

I have re-jiggled the list a bit for you which comes out at 302 points.

There is a section in the rules about overspends:
Overspend
It is possible that players may spend over 300 points on their army.
This is allowed up to a total of 6 points of overspend.
If a player has overspent, then the opponent can roll a D6.
If he scores under the overspend amount a base will be lost from the army.
Each player rolls a D6. The higher scorer choose which base is lost from the army

This would mean that your opponent rolls 1 dice and has to roll a 1 to remove 1 base.

Have a look at this version:

3 x close order Vet shield Shock     87
3 x close order Trd Shield              54
2 x Close order Missile                  28
3 x Aux Trd Shield                        33 
2 x aux Levy Shield                      12
4 x Aux Levy Missile Shield           32
8 x Skirmisher                             56

Total 302

This gives you 17 fighting units and 8 skirmish.  A big Army in C&K terms.  You have 8 Close order to hold the battleline with 9 aux to support. You could have a little more if you dropped the shields from your Aux missile troops. The 12 points you would save could give another trained aux unit.

Bear in mind most people would soak the first 2 hits on skirmishers, then possibly 1 or 2 more on the best saving troops. Apart from the 2 close order missile units they are shielded so would have a save of 4+ (Veterans would have 3+ in melee). 5th hit always goes to the General if present. That's a lot of hits that you don't see often in the game. Max dice in fighting is only 18 and with 5+ needed you would expect 6 or so max but sometimes it does happen.

Hope that helps

Derek

[Stevewales88]

Looks good Derek. It is both fun but also frustrating trying to understand the Aztec and then trying to represent them well and efficiently in C&K.
Take Arrow Knights - I had them as one unit of close order veteran missile shield. The old Basic Impetus lists has a massive three units of them but I was reading a couple of days ago an article by a Spanish writer who questions their very existence and thinks that some footnotes in the original text mentioning them have been forgotten. All part of the fun of our hobby I suppose!
Steve

[Moggy]

Always a problem when dealing with a "history" from people who didn't use a written record. At least the Egyptians carved scenes? from battles and had records no matter how far fetched and biased they were.

From the little I know of the Aztec (mainly from history channel etc) is that they relied on a verbal history. Now with the exploration of what those knotted strings may reveal who can say where it will all go. Ort was that the Mayans, or Toltecs or some other mob I don't even remember the name of lol.

Even those with a written record it can't truely be trusted as it was frequently written many years after the events by someone who had the tale thrid or forth hand and had to write things a certain way to keep the local king happy or else!.

Ah well, I prefer to think of it all a historical fiction!  Do you honestly believe all the stuff that was let out about the Gulf War, Afghanistan and many others.  Wait till the court cases happen 20 to 30 years later and you may get half the truth.


Not really cynical am I. 

Derek