Romanians?

[Tony S]

There seems to an omission in the Armies Book.  Romanians!  Has anyone ever done any list(s) for that country?    Thanks!

[martin goddard]

Good question Tony.
A Rumanian army would be good.
SB army list are not up for a re do at the moment though.

Players wanting to use Rumanians might consider using the Russian list?
Not exact but good enough?


martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

An alternative, if someone had the appropriate insight or was willing to do the research, might be to suggest a list that could be refined and published here as a semi-official "rule extension"?

Simon

[martin goddard]

Good thought Simon

martin

[Colonel Kilgore]

This might help:

http://www.hat.com/Othr7/Fred01P.html

I can't vouch for the authenticity, but there is a good level of detail, and it seems that the Romanian organisation was quite different from most other countries'. An excerpt:

"A 1941 platoon would officially contain; 1-LT, 1-SSG, 3-SGTs, 9-CPLs, and 42-PVTs, for a total of one officer and 55 enlisted men. Equipment included 3-ZB30 LMG's, 4- M38a SMG's (at most), and 49- ZB24 rifles. Although this was the official organization, platoons in the field would seldom field a full compliment of men."

From 1942, platoon and company organisation appears closer to that of the Germans',  albeit with perhaps an ven greater emphasis on firepower,  and including a 50mm mortar at platoon level. Might be a good one for the "power gamer"? 

Simon

[Wardy64]

If we are talking Romanians for Squarebashing then I would agree with Martin, base it loosely on Russian forces for 1916. The Romanians did not enter WW1 till August 1916, from what I can see they were poorly propared and sought Russian help.

If talking forces for PBI - Flames of War do a briefing list of equipment and unit structure which may guide force development to build your own PBI force, they also have figures for the period.

D&B

[Colonel Kilgore]

Apologies all - I'd seen so much posted about PBI recently that I forgot this query had been posted under Square Bashing... 

Simon

[Tony S]

I was indeed referring to the Balkan and First World Wars.  I should have been clearer.

I suppose the Early WW1 Russian list might do in a pinch, although after doing a little bit of reading on them, it seems foreign military observers noted an appalling lack of equipment, training and leadership.  Their officers corps (grossly top heavy in the numbers of generals) seemed remarkably incompetent.  When one general, hard pressed, asked for reinforcements, otherwise for permission to fall back, he was promptly relieved of command.  A more bellicose replacement was sent out, who immediately visited the front, only to be shot and severely wounded a few minutes later.  He later died of infection in hospital.  The division retreated.

The French sent a highly esteemed General to help with strategy, and the Romanians listened to and followed his advice, although it was mostly bad.  Another foreign military observer sneered that the Romanians, despite having many observers of their own embedded in the various combatants armies from 1914 onwards, seemed to have learned nothing of "modern war" and used outdated tactics to send their men to be slaughtered.  Apparently this observer conveniently forgot that the rest of Europe did same for the 1904 Russo-Japanese war.

Yet, the Germans commented several times that despite the Romanians' poor showing, that they took remarkably few prisoners.  The Romanians fought bravely enough, and sadly would die rather than surrender.  They did have the misfortune of facing two of WW1's most capable Generals - Falkenhayn and Mackenson, as well as getting very little Russian or Western Allied support from Salonika as was promised before they declared war on the Central powers.   Their timing was also exquisitely poor in that they waited until the Brusilov offensive and the Somme Offensives were pretty much over, so that the Germans and Austrians could move reinforcements to the Romanian front.  Despite that, they did have some successes, especially later in 1917.

I think a Russian list, with poorer command, no professional units, fewer machine guns, no aircraft or A/C and less capable artillery assets would be more appropriate.  One military advisor commented on their poor ability to entrench decently, so perhaps lowering the "hasty defences" asset would also be applicable.  Perhaps, to reflect their bravery as shown by the lack of prisoners taken by their enemies, a higher "hold the line" asset?  Not sure about that.

They do have their attractions - they fought Germans, Austrians, Turks and Bulgarians in WW1.  Both the Austrians and Romanians used river gunboats, which would be fun to use on the table.  And even though most of their country was overrun quite rapidly, they didn't surrender, and the Allies managed to supply more equipment to them. The Romanians did have some offensive successes later, and quite honestly it was only the 1917 Russian Revolution that drove them to capitulate.  Even then, Romania reentered the war on November 10, 1918 - yes, the day before Germany surrendered.   But given this was in the Balkans, things were of course extremely messy and confused, and Romania then promptly fought the Romanian-Hungarian War until 1919.  Soviet Russia promised support to the Hungarian Soviet Republic, but was a trifle busy fighting Whites and Poles so they never fought Romania directly at this time, although they did instruct the Odessa Soviet Republic and the Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic to invade Romania.  Romania fought off both incursions and won the war, seizing much territory.

[Colonel Kilgore]

I was indeed referring to the Balkan and First World Wars.  I should have been clearer.

Tony - not at all - you posted in the right place, which made it obvious from that context. I simply forgot which wars we were talking about between my own first and second post... 

In any case, thank you for the interesting potted history below. I've certainly learned something today!

Simon

[Leslie BT]

Tony, why not create a list based on your reasearch and post it in the Army Lists section above for comments.

You could even send it to Martin to publish in 'The 15 Mill' for comments as well.

There is some help on the opening pages of the army lists books.

[Tony S]

Not a bad idea Leslie, with the caveat that my level of knowledge in the theatre is virtually non existent.  I have a few books, with a few chapters on the specifics; that's about it.

I do have a comment or suggestion though.  I just noticed the new 15 Mill - and downloaded it and read it immediately of course - and saw that once more Pierre wrote a wonderful article on a SB Macedonia campaign.  Besides wishing I had all the armies needed (and of the ones I had, wishing they were as well painted), I was interested to be reminded that there are a couple of extra army lists that he wrote that were included in earlier issues.

Just a thought, but why not have a little pinned section at the top of the SB section here, that include all the completely non official but better than nothing Square Bashing army lists in one place?  There's an absolutely wonderful resource for Painting Guides, perhaps something similar for army lists?

[Leslie BT]

Give it a go Tony, the members of this forum will help with any amendments and additions and you will end up with a great list.

It is bound to be better than the one we have at present!!

[Camulogene]

wishing I had all the armies needed (and of the ones I had, wishing they were as well painted)

Hi Tony,
you don't have to build a dozen complete armies to play this campaign ; To my sense, the most important and most fun is playing the corresponding Square Bashing different army-lists, even using proxies. As an example, I only have a "nucleus" of say 300 pts for each "minor" country (Greece, Bulgaria, etc.), and those "cores" will be completed, depending on the scenarios played, with "auxiliaries".
For example, Bulgarians can be reinforced by Austrian or German artillery, Serbians can have the support of French infantry, etc, etc.
Furthermore, the same figures can play different roles, as in the end uniforms tended to look the same: some Greek troops were supplied with British outfits, Serbians were entirely re-equiped with French equipment and uniforms, etc, etc.

Pierre