Flodden 1513

[John in York]

Anyone use BB to fight the Battle of Flodden. Obviously the English Bow / Polearm would work but what about the Scots Pike Blocks? Any thoughts welcome as I have a Scots Flodden army gathering dust.

[Leman (Andy)]

Pikes are covered in the rules as pikemen were used as mercenaries, especially in the later battles, eg Stoke 1487 featured a large number of German pike on the rebel side. I would be inclined to class the Scots pike at Flodden as levy troops.

[John in York]

Thanks for the reply Leman that was very useful. I'm going to buybthe Rulebook at Vapnartak.

[Battle Brush]

Hello all, first time poster on here.
In addition to this, I have a client who plays Bloody Barons, as do I, great set of rules! anyway he ia after me painting him a Scottish Army, circa 1485-1525. Any good sites I could find an army list, pref for 'BB' but not essential. Also, what did the Scots use as troop types, I remember lotsa pikes, and mounted archers, and what did they look like?
A lotta questions, I know, sorry! anybody can point me to a good website? or has a lot of knowledge to share?

Many thanks, not wishing to thread-jack!

John

[martin goddard]

A good question . it had got me stuck. i know nothing about those Scots. Is it king James?

[Leslie BT]

John, welcome to the site.

A little about Scotland's involvement in the Wars of the Roses. You'll be wanting to do a French army next then.

Yay, something I actually know a little bit about. I finished Lancaster and York: The Wars of the Roses by Alison Weir, just a couple weeks ago. The book covers the war and what preceded it from the death of Edward III, who created the duchies of York and Lancaster, through the death of Henry VI and Edward IV's consolidation of power. In the book, she makes little mention of Ireland except that a few times the major Lords over the area were sent to put down small and insignificant uprisings. Ireland did very little to affect the outcome of the war. Scotland, on the other hand, did play a role. After Edward IV took power from the Lancasters the first time, Margaret of Anjou, wife of Henry VI, ran to the Queen of Scotland, who gave her asylum in Edinburgh. Margaret, not Henry, was the primary force behind any Lancaster power as frankly Henry was an overly pious idiot who did not understand how to make policy or earn money for the crown, and it was from Edinburgh that Margaret was able to begin her pursuit of regaining the crown for her husband. From Scotland and northern England, Margaret was able to recruit a large army to retake the throne on the promise that she would allow her soldiers to ransack the south when London was retaken. She also negotiated for aid from the Scottish, including giving the Scottish the north English city of Berwick. While this trade secured aid for Margaret with the Scottish, it severely angered many Englishmen, as Berwick was a heavily contested city that many Englishmen had died to protect over the years. From Scotland, the Lancasters were then able to stage a campaign that removed the Yorks from power, though only for a few months. The Yorks, who were great at spreading propaganda and who had shown that they cared more for the English people than the Lancasters, were however quickly able to re-remove them due to the wide support of te commons. Later in the war, after the Lancasters had retaken and relost the crown, Margaret returned to Scotland in hopes of doing all this again, though this time she had fewer allies, both English and foreign, and so the Scottish were less willing to grant her much aid, though they did give her some supplies.

TL;DR: Margaret of Anjou ran to the Scottish nobility both times she lost power, and staged attacks against the Yorks with Scottish aid. The Irish played very little part at all in the war.

Margaret of Anjou did both. She originally went to Scotland for help as the Yorks took power. Later, as her different attempts to retake the crown progressed and failed, she went to France for help from the French king, who was a friend of her father's, and who also felt that by helping install her husband on the throne again, he may gain an ally in his coming attack on the duchy of Burgundy. However, Margaret consistently failed at garnering support within England, and so the King (Charles, I believe) stopped giving her anything more than promises. Margaret finally got the chance to return triumphantly to England when Edward IV's old ally the Earl of Warwick turned on him for the Lancasters, but Margaret was unable to cross the Channel in time due to stormy weather, and Warwick was killed in battle before she had the opportunity to make a difference. The death of Warwick all but secured the York's power and pretty much ensured that they won the war.

[John in York]

King James IV Martin.

Flodden fascinates me as the Scots attempted to emulate Swiss Pike tactics whilst the English stuck to the tried and tested Bill and Bow combination. Plus Flodden had the first artillery duel on British soil.

[Battle Brush]

Great information, especially Leslie BT, thanks for that!

So, the big question, how to transfer this into a Bloidy Barions Army? As the rules as based by base, if you see what I mean, it alliwd mixed units very well, at it basic level 'standard' bill and bow foot units. So an eight stand, 24 figure, Scottish unit could be fourcrear stands of Spearmen, (this is for a Berwick era army, my understanding is that full length pike weren't really around til Floddon?) two stands of bow? And two stands of 'nobles?' Maybe Armoured/harnessed chaos? Then a unit or two of just bow? And the same of just sword and buckler? Some light guns, and light cavalry? How about full harness heavy horse? I'm doubting this, but, as for the standard foot, a stand or two in with the light horse?
Sorry for my ramblings, but I need the wealth of expertise on here, translated to the tabletop!

Many thanks for your help so far, and thanks in advance for any 'wargame' aspect he'll you all can give.
Cheers
John

[Leman (Andy)]

Have a look at the Osprey campaign book, Flodden. Plenty of illustrations, plus battle maps, tactics etc. Not a bad place to start. Pendraken Miniatures do an extremely comprehensive Flodden range in their 10mm Renaissance section - this includes standards for both sides, as well as French troops and personalities. These are the basis of my Flodden project. If you are up on the Scottish border in the NE it is a fantastic battlefield to visit as it has hardly changed since 1513. It is possible to work out exactly where most of the Osprey pictures are located.