HE thoughts for discussion

[Smiley Miley 66]

These are some notes I ve come up with so far. Very much unfinished but I thought need to get them out there, someone might be able to write them up better than myself ?
Trying to tackle HE direct and indirect firing. I ve tried to keep things as simple as possible to match the PBI game as it stands in the same vein and relative simplicity (John!)
The indirect fire is more to do with the up coming Italian games as much as anything, as the use of Sherman's was found to be as good if not better at putting it on a ramp to get the best elevation out of the gun as possible, rather than a direct fire vehicle ?
Also with Beach assaults coming up trying to sort out Fortifications and walls, as well as buildings in an Urban fight.
Still got to look at Engineers ? But I suspect once we get simple factors for HE sorted out and the right factors for buildings and alike sorted giving their explosives numbers will be relatively easy ?
Please come up with ideas, arguments etc, don't forget to hit the "reply all" then we all get to see them ?
Yes this is mainly an Appendix (scenario based )not in anyway trying to write the rules, just trying to come up with something that is simple and works in the sprite of PBI game. It can then be published in the next Mill ? - Website etc
Also adding to this thinking is possibly looking at rockets from Aeroplane's, and missiles and rockets on vehicle launchers too.
If we got it right eventually light and medium bombs that you expect on our sort of tables ?
But this is a long way off yet ?
Since writing this Martin has written down some things so we might be able to get there ?
Miles.

Here is my first thoughts:-

Indirect Firing:
Tanks and self propelled guns as well as carriage guns.

Especially in Italy the use of Sherman tanks as "tracked guns"

So firing over building templates to a sighted Square.

As with Mortars you need a spotter. I propose the spotter would be an infantry platoon, in as much someone (base) in an infantry platoon has LOS on the target square, and will then be in contact with the rest of their platoon. That platoon then has to be in contact with the firing tank(s)

Contact would be in Proximity/ adjacent Squares, no gaps, same as the usual rule for platoon cohesion.

So when firing the tank can be in a building/closed square or adjacent square and can fire over this template, to a minimum range of 4 Squares plus

The target Square can be a Building or closed square template, but the fire will not be able to go into any squares beyond, unless a short/over dice has been rolled ?

Buildings and Structures:

Basic Structure. 5 points. (Hit points)

This would be the foundations, this would also include "fortified square" or "Dug in"  in the assets.

So this means it doesn't mater what happens in a game the "foundations" are always going to have a Factor of 5 !

If you bomb an area with Foxholes, building foundations, bits of ruins, rubble,creators all you are going to do is create extra creators and rubble which will become re shaped foxholes essentially?

Especially in a PBI game as the time factor is always going to be a limited or set time?

Whether this is house foundations or bunker foundations?

Bungalow- first storey plus 5 points.

10 (Hit) points for a 1 Storey House/bungalow.

House - second storey plus 5 points.

Then for every extra storey plus 5 points.

Bunker - for a Fortified bunker 5 points.

MG, gun pit, wooden type with dirt and sandbags "Sanger" with some corrugated iron roof, sandbags and dirt etc.

10 (Hit) points.

Concrete construction plus 5 points.

This would include (basic) Tobruk's. Sea Walls ?

10 (Hit) points.

Side walls, back and roof plus 5 points.

Proper bunker. Pill box type.

This would make it 15 (Hit)points.

Plus shot barrier also extra concrete plus 5 points.

Gun emplacement type

Making that 20 (Hit) points.

Then observation bunkers ( multiple levels ) plus 5 for each  storey.

Howitzer Firing:

To destroy buildings you need to hit it with direct and indirect fire.

By using the HE factors from guns, to calculate the amount of damage caused by these guns. So  when a target has been identified, then the gun fires using Action Points (4)and the usual rules of 2 dice scoring 8 plus to hit.

There will be a separate table for this, as the one in the rules for firing against tanks but will have some new lines in it.

As your firing at a building Square, built up square, forest(possibly) Rocks. These are in the square so are big and stationary so unlike infantry are not small and mobile ? So would be a plus one or two ? Depending on how you class the square ? But might be a minus if you're too far away as well ? Up to 3 Squares away say ?

When a Hit is archived then the HE factor of the gun, usually 1-3, most infantry support guns will be 2 or 3 ! There is a bit further forward an argument about bigger guns and bigger factors coming into play ? But this is outside of a "normal" game realistically!

Then this is taken off the building factor ?

So a 1 Storey House (bungalow) would have 10 points, so this would now be minus 1 -3 points if fired at by a "Normal tank/field gun used on a PBI table.

A small bonus if you like? While Archiving the Hit, if a Double 6 has been rolled, then any aperture, like one on a bunker ? then could receive the hit ? Then if there is a "gun" or infantry bases in there ? These would be hit by the usual "HE on infantry" rules ?

This would represent the fact that these "Bases" are "Dug in"and are not easy to hit ?

(Example would be the bunker on Arromanches, that was eventually breached and gun blown up with a shot through the back door of the bunker !)

As well as the HE factor of damage to come off the "Building"

I do propose we expand the HE factors ?

This is only a proposed(loose)list, can be semi flexible!

Example of a 2inch mortar and a 60mm mortar would have to same affects ? Just like a 3 inch and 80mm and 4 inch and 105-120mm Mortars ?

So as on the HE table 2 dice gun Factor of 2, 3 Dice gun Factor of 3, 4 dice gun Factor of 4 ? Keeps it simple

Less than 1 inch calibre no affect ?

Up to 2 inch HE factor of 1.

Up to 3 inch HE factor of 2.

Up to 4 inch HE factor of 3. 

Up to 5 inch HE factor of 4.

Up to 6 inch HE factor of 5.

Once you get to 200mm guns, Petard and Rocket gun definitely an HE factor of 6 or maybe more ?

But we do have to set a limit somewhere?

Maybe go up to 10(off table big gun support)but that would include the likes of Battleships, Cruisers and Railway guns with there Plunging affect. But how big is a PBI game ? Before these come onto to a table as a factor ?

Most of the next bit would be more Scenario based games  in the main, as a lot of buildings and fortifications would possibly be present, hence the need and use of these weapon systems.

I think realistically the Petard Mortar, Russian 203mm and smaller IS152s , German 150mm and American 155mm guns would be the biggest you are ever likely to field on a table ? The above list are guns that have been on and widely documented as such on battlefields especially in a House to House situation !

The StrumTiger was fielded in 1945 but in very small numbers, so I think classing it as a Petard Mortar would be best !

Also the above list especially the British Petard, Russian, German and US guns when on table will be firing basically at point blank ranges, rather than long ranged firing.

From what I have read you don't want to be in an AFV if the Long Tom or 203mm fires directly at you ? The Concussion forces are quite vast !

Tell me what you think please ?
 Miles

[Moggy]

Looks reasonable at first glance Miles.  I would suggest that the square directly behind the buildings being fired over cannot be targeted due to round trajectory chacteristics.

Rounds fired this way are subject to deviation as per current rules. (You mention this but it needs to be specified directly to avoid ambiguity)

you say "So when firing the tank can be in a building/closed square or adjacent square and can fire over this template, to a minimum range of 4 Squares plus"  How deep a table are you looking at for this. on an 8x8 grid it doesnt allow a lot of chance for this happening.

I am assuming that where you specify building you also can mean hill and wood? If you can fire over buildings should be able to fire over some trees and a small hill.

Not sure about the points on multi storey building. Would you have to specify which floor you are firing at?  In which case always go for the ground floor. Once that is destroyed the floors above tend to fall down anyway.

Just initial thought so far. will have a longer look later.   Looking good for a starter though. Well done Miles.

Derek

[Smiley Miley 66]

Depth of table. 8 square. You're in Square one. Square 2,3,4 and target square 5. Then squares 6,7,8. Sounds big enough to me ?
There will have to be some flexibility, as this is PBI. Also remember the Monte Cassino table at the show is only 8 x8 squares as per normal rules.
Also remember you are targeting a square not a base, so if the tank or gun on whatever carriage has been jacked up to fire like a Howitzer/Mortar ? It will go sort of straight up and nearly straight back down once it gets to its azimuth?
So if Square 5 is its target surely 4 and 6 are in range ? Ideally I would like a table that is a bit bigger ? But we have to work with what we got ?
Yes Derek there is a lot of things missed out on my first draughty of the rules. Yes the usual 1 short, 2,3,4,5 hit and 6 long would be applied. As Martin got this right and it's in the rules why change it ?
The idea is to add and expand to the existing rules not to re write them ?
Miles