PBI battle day 11th June

[martin goddard]

7 people turned up.
5 games played.
It all looked very good. i will post pictures on Sunday too.

Thanks to Miles for organising it.
It was also Miles' birthday.

Matters that came up.

1. Game length. Countdown to 36 instead of 40?
2. Did some more usage of smoke. Seemed OK.
3. Re pointing MG armoured cars
4.Defender no longer gets direct compensation for being defender (D6-1 etc) but can claim up to 8 points for buildings occupied.
5. Clarifications of various items needed from martin.

Tanks to all those who attended.

martin

[Smiley Miley 66]

It was a very good day, thank you for those that came.
A big thank you to our hosts at Entoyment. They got me Bday cake too.
Thank you to Martin for buying Lunch.
2 games play and drew both.
I can see Martins point about A/cars, but I think if you make them too expensive then we won't use them. maybe make them easier to attack and destroy/disable by concentration of Platoon fire ?
Martin seems to think they are "War" winning. Even though he rolled 28 dice and didn't score one 6. I keep,saying that yes they have to potential to roll lots of 6's but to actually get them in reality is hard.
It's only Stewart with his special dice get ever get that many 6's !
I had 3 in the morning game even bunched up right next to a target with a man rich square I only score 4 hits with 7 bases in the square and most of them saved.
I keep saying and I will continue to say wether you roll 4-6 dice or 20-30 dice it doesn't mean you will get 6's all the time ? It's still a 1 in 6 chance per die.
Yes theoretically the more you throw the higher the chance ! But I know John, Mike, Simon and a few others will agree those '6's never seem to turn up ?
So I think the easiest way to counter the A/car is to make it easier to disable from infantry fire rather than out point it and not make it viable. Or allow it to have the Boys A/T and Bren gun that the model has rather than limit it to having an HMG ?
A Morris a/car or a Rolls Royce a/car didn't have the toughest armour in the world ?
Miles

[John Watson]

I'm still not convinced by the smoke rule change. I was under the impression that smoke got rolled for at the end of every player's turn, but apparently it is not. It is still after the owning player's turn only.
I also think the game is too long. Martin is suggesting a small countdown reduction, but I would go further and say 32 is a good start.
John

[Richardwills]

I was also under the impression smoke was going to get tested every turn regardless of smoke ownership.  I think that would be simpler.

Countdown of 32 sounds a good idea to trial too.  In several games now we have been getting near to the point of hardly any troops left!

Thanks John for two good games. You were unlucky my off field artillery was so good on the day!

Richard

[Smiley Miley 66]

One problem could be now, when we put down "Taking Cover" markers to stop these been used up, is stop moving figures about ?
Sometimes you might bring figures "in" or "dash"  about the board until you realise that you will disrupt a certain square with its "Taking Cover" Marker so you then think "I won't do that then ?"
Also because of the "Taking cover" Markers now bases are harder to kill, and also the 3/4/5 dice on a failed Moral test Platoons are staying longer ? Good for that player of course, but making the game longer ? Maybe!
Yes bring the Countdown clock down a bit.
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

Armoured Cars.
There best defence is Mobility. Reconnaissance unit their best defence mobility.
I put this as Martin again used the words a "war winning weapon"
First off I use British a lot as most people know. The biggest problem is "Fire Power" or lack of ?
As the War progresses the German platoon front line Fire power got more and more powerful. The only way to counter this in PBI is to bring up something that equals or exceeds that fire power. I do try and use historical ways that the British done this throughout the war years.
Howitzers, Churchill's, Flame Throwers even captured Panthers. All "War winning" these all mainly being LW solutions. This is mainly to counter the PanzerSchreck, Panzerfaust and that German LMG 3 of them in a Building Square covering half the board and maybe even a second nest of 3 in another building square equally covering another avenue of advance. Plus nowadays other weapons in that square as we now tend to overcrowd them. So you are ending up facing 12 plus dice every time you think of moving, firing etc. Then when it comes down to the German go 24 plus dice are coming out at you. But Martin says the HMG 7 dice is "War Winning" but the 8 dice a German LMG isn't?
Players scrub the historic organised systems of Sections and group together all their LMG's in a "War Winning" if not then in an impossible "game winning" position covering an avenue to or on an objective.
I lost a whole platoon in 2 moves against one of these positions and I never even assaulted as I was blown away before I could muster enough troops to do this. There was some unlucky saves. But this still isn't "War Winning" weapon !
But an HMG A/car is ?
Now to get back to the Armoured car.
One suggestion is Armour or lack of armour on a light armoured car. This could also include Half tracks, scout cars and armoured troop carriers( M3, Hannomags and Kangaroos as examples)
Armour Value lower than a 4 ?
Martin says that infantry can't stop the likes of an light A/car in EW, which is true up to a point. But any force that can bring enough fire power to bear will eventually win ? So to back this up a whole platoon firing at say an armoured car eventually something has to crack ?
So like a Artillery piece that has an Armoured value of 4 against tanks. Also has a defence value against infantry fire. As rifles and MG's will kill the crew making the gun useless.
So maybe the same principle can be applied here ?
Especially as an armoured car get to within one square of infantry, Grenades and other forms of explosives would be in a platoons inventory, so continued fire would surely disrupt, dissuade or disable if not even destroy any A/car ?
Yes as the war goes on these units and vehicles did get better protection and bigger guns,  but  so did everyone else !
As I said at the beginning the best form of defence for and A/car or Recon unit which historically has Lighter armour is mobility, not to stand there and fight.
So Martin is right. A lightly armoured vehicle with a heavy weapon can be a menace, but these sort of weapons are not there or designed to get into a stand off, they will lose in the end !
But how we apply this on a PBI battlefield ?
Miles

[Smiley Miley 66]

Smoke. Maybe 5/6 it's stays and if one other smokes touches or in same square 4/5/6. But that's it.
Regardless if it is big or little rounds, until a time we might be able to distinguish between them ?
I think we can all agree if several smoke rounds land in the same square or next to each other it has a slightly more chance of staying longer. It's nice to have the smoke there but sometimes it can be over powering in its effect.
We have all been on both sides of it as it can help some moves and hinder others !
Maybe as a house rule those of us that play it regularly put a time limit on it ? But not as a normal game (especially a new comer) as this would complicate matters.
Miles.

[Big Mike]

Saturday's event at Entoyment was a cracking day out. Thanks to Miles and Martin and all those to attended.
A few observations;

2 Raw Armoured Cars with HMGs are good value and can use up a few points to buy a unit that comes on quickly. They are very lightweight in LW games, but ok for EW/MW. Having tried them out quite a bit I may still use them even if the cost goes up.
Light Mortars, German LMGs, Foot AT weapons etc can be annoying and many of us get thumped by them from time to time. The answer is to use different tactics to counter them as Miles has suggested.
I deployed a Priest SP gun with good HE but stupidly parked it where a Stug shot it up.  Bad tactic.

Smoke system is OK but LM smoke is not likely to last beyond the 1st turn unless doubling up.
Coordinating smoke, pinning and hits in preparation for an assault needs careful thought.

If PBI seems long compared to some PP games, remember the previous PBI rule set had a Turn counter clock starting at 21 but rolled once per Turn by one player (Defender?) only re-rolling 1's, so still about 40 on the current system.

Unless we see a lot of D6 rolling taken out of the game (too much of the character of the game would then be lost) the countdown needs to come down if we want a shorter game.
Mike

[Colonel Kilgore]

Sounds like you all had a good day, and a good couple of games each.

Nice to see all this rules testing going on too.

Simon

[DorchesterBede]

How did the new 'you go I go' terrain placement go and what did players pick first? My limited experience of this is that players tend to go for the rough ground and buildings first - it certainly adds a dynamic to the table set up part of the game. Does anyone know the ratio of wins to losses, is the defender winning more or the other way around? Will shortening the game make it harder for the attacker  to win?

This is why we play test, the game needs to be balanced and costing is an important part of this, it is not about game winning weapons about about costing different things German LMGs, armoured cars, Tiger Tanks, flamethrowers, BARs etc. We all want to go into a game thinking the army we have can win, not will win. It is not much fun playing a game you think you can't win nor is it much of a challenge fielding an army that can't lose. I know Stewart, is there such a thing as an army that I can't lose with.

I guess what I'm getting at is that after a good days playtesting we need to ask what went well in the games and just as importantly what did not.

Chris

[Smiley Miley 66]

I think the scenery part is so much better now.
No one player is getting too much more scenery than the other etc. Tables look more realistic not like castles that was happening in V3. So personally I think that is fixed.
Still think the placement of Objectives still needs a tweak or two but again that's my personal opinion?
Yes you right about let's focus on what does and doesn't work.
I will not deny if I can find a way to get me a way to try and match mainly German firepower with my British anyway I can then I will. If that means using Captured tanks, the heaviest armoured vehicles I can put on the table the biggest usable Howitzer and possibly as many flame throwers( but these are only really assault weapons !) or put a recon unit that allows me more MG's then I will if I have to combat powerful LMG's (especially when players clump them all together to make impenetrable nests in good commanding positions on the board) and Man portable A/T weapons. Because there is a problem there.
When I played against a Japanese force the other week it's funny I never felt that I was ever out gunned or over whelmed with enemy fire power ? Or the Italians ? This wasn't an issue with either foe?
Miles

[John Watson]

I don't know why some get excited about German firepower. Give me the Americans any time. Garands have a big advantage with return and opportunity fire and you don't have to use BARs. You can use 30 cals instead.
John

[Smiley Miley 66]

Quite simply you get a lot a dice coming at you everytime you look at a German Nest of LMG's and SMG's and whatever else people can place in the Square to keep you out. When it comes at you repeatedly eventually with some bad dice rolling your own troops die and can be quite rapidly. Which didn't seem to be an issue the last time I played Japs and Italians.
Must admit an American force can nearly give as good as they get from the Germans but not quite in an excessive way I feel.
Miles

[John Watson]

I agree Miles, but with the Americans it is relentless.
John