RFCM

I'd (belatedly) support Dennis on that.

Brian

Doubtless to immense relief, very few commens on this version.

I like the magic 4 section

Generals – good clarification  Still find it odd that both generals appear to be equal instead of a c-in-c and his deputy.

More than one general in a zone – presumably the player can decide which to use?  Could make it a die roll as to which one is used 

P13 Battle tactics – first bullet point still does not fit with the rest of the text inc 2nd bullet point

P16 – I note my comment about saving rolls didn't win favour 

P45 saving rolls – add General at 2+ instead of having to look it up.

Random scenery.  Could I suggest "Middle d6 = starting theme"

I'd also suggest merging points 3 and 4: "...right or left by players rolling a d6 each."

Brian

In that case, a quick rush to finish before you do!

P55 examples missing – possibly they fell back off the (master table)   

P57 "Maximums of 4d6 are ....".  I can't see any maximums of 4d6, the only maximum is 2d6 for generals.

P59 4th bullet  Armies do indeed start with 2 generals

P102  last line "...not counted as skirmisher..."  Don't understand this, obviously meant to be a bonus for the target so should it be ...counted as skirmisher...?

P103.  Really like the limited visibility rules

P104 second ...special closed scenery... does this mean obstructed scenery?

P104 – reference to generals costing 40 points

P104 – weakened – needs defining

P105 – the diagram might be better showing a 6" grid (and thus the 12"x6" templates covering two squares each)

P106 Randomised scenery – really don't understand it at all

Made it to the end before a new version ariives !!

By the way, the version says 40 but the this topic says 50 - I thought I'd drifted off for a while and missed 10 versions!

Brian

Hii Derek,

I think your comment re: an endless succesion of replacement generals is very valid.  I'd assumed one replacement, thus the comment in my suggestion, it's not in the rules.(to lose one general is an accident, to loose two smacks of carelessness, to lose 23 is downrigh inept!)

And a few more:

P35 "Morale is taken at the start..."  Strictly speaking, no, flanking is first.

P35  "supporting proximity zone"  There's no definition (4 or more friendly bases to match the hostile definition?) and would be a useful addition to the glossary

P36 last bullet – does rough ground count in the case of elephants?

P38 "Elephants and chariots may not..."  Doesn't align with the rules in the scenery section.

P39 "These totals..."  There only seems to be one total.  The same for the next line.

P50 Fighting d6 – I don't understand the 'no fight' comment against 3 late units.  And this doesn't correspond with the bonuses listed on page 46.

P50 – Bow effect (each hit) – I don't understand this and there's no other reference.

Brian

Today's installment.

P6 – it's a glossary not a dictionary

P9 elephants in rough ground – doesn't align with the playsheet.  And the playsheet shows that chariots cannot enter 'scenery' when there's no restrictions on page 9

P9   "...not allowed to fall back into such scenery either"  ..inrto scenery they cannot move through?

P10   "A single d6 may be placed by a player on a piece of scenery"  Possibly clearer as 'Each player may only place one d6 on a piece of scenery.

P16  (Saving rolls) could be called 'reducing the number of hits you've just worked out' without sounding pretentious.

P20 do generals roll their gift dice before or during the game?  Answered on p27

P21 "A second general will magically re-appear if the first general is killed"   A player has two generals so should this read "A replacement general will magically appear if a general is killed.  There is only one replacement for each general."

P28  "If a player rolls a 6 he loses all...  This includes his chase modifier for mobility?

I hope this helps,

Brian

Checking against the playsheet, the chance to hit is unchanged and the chance of saving is improved by 1.  The relevant sentence could definitely be clearer.

Brian

Hi Derek,

I obviously wasn't clear.  My point is that the current wording is "Woods give an improving modifier to shootings hits when targets are in them."  The sentence lacks clarity in a number of ways - does the modifier affect the hits obtained? - does it affact the chance of getting shooting hits? - but the general sense (as I read it) is that shooting is 'improved' when a target is in a wood (or building) which I find difficult to believe and seem to be a point on which we agree.  Thus my comment that possibly what was meant was that the saving roll would be improved so that fire is less effective.  Whichever way it is tackled - reduced chance of hitting combined with an unchanged chance of saving or an unchanged chance of hitting combined with an mproved chance of saving, the outcome is the same - the target will take fewer casualties. 

Brian

A few comments on CK 50.  Only to p13 so far as I'm finding it very slow going at pedantry set to max.

P3 ...generalship rather than general ship

P4 a battlesheet... a copy of the battlesheet at the end of these rules ?

P5  either ...a player's ability.. or ...the players' ability...

P5 somehow "maximum number of units in a zone is 3 always sounds wrong without 'The' at the front as in "The first skirmisher unit..." but tastes vary.

P6 – formatting glitch

P7   A base - ..with a multiple of figures or models...  or  ...with a multiple of figures or a model (on the basis that there's one elephant, one chariot, etc)...

Dictionary   Onagers seems an odd inclusion given there's only one use of the term in the rules.
Add Destroyed / Disintegrate (though I think they are the same thing)

P8 "This would give cloth covered in small crosses at intervals in all directions" sounds odd.  This could be a cloth... perhaps?

P8  Could I suggest that the table (why is it labelled 'A'?) would be clearer labelled as scenery limit per player'.

P8 Woods give ....  Surely they improve the chance of saving rather than the chance of hitting.

P9 same re buildings

P13 first bullet – maximum of 3 of any battle tactic.  2nd bullet ...each army has access to one or more battle tactic types (usually 3)
The table says 'choose 5 battle tactics from those allowed'.
So I'm not clear whether there a choice of 3 or 5 battle tactic types but it seems that you could pick the same tactic three type three times.  If that's the case, then the suggestion to label the battle tactics available as 1,2,3 doesn't work and seems to assume only three types.

I hope this helps.
Brian

Hi,

For various reasons I'm only getting through C&K rather slowly so keep getting behind as Martin publishes new versions quicker than I can keep up.  So the following only goes to page 47 but I thought they might be useful.

P7 At strength listed twice, the first being the longer and better definition.

P15 – Battle tactics say "Maximum of 3 of any one type" but the chart on p16 doesn't make any reference to types.

P17 I think the title is a bit misleading as it actually covers 'Fall Backs' and what to do if the fall back is 'blocked'.

P17 says "there are 4 circumstances..." but the table below lists 5.

P24 says a maximum of 6d6 per gift then the example shows morale = 8

P30  I can't see the rationale behind pikes having a 1 in 3 chance of gaining an advantage over an opponent; by comparison 'shock' units always get the effect.  Why aren't pikes treated in the same way?

P31.Table says a total of 4 pieces of scenery

P31 Section 21 Choosing the scenery.  Already covered (in more detail) in section 6.

P31 Section 22 The General.  Already covered (in more detail) in section 14.

P34 Section 25 Scenery layout.  Already covered (in more detail) in section 6.

P35 says "A first elephant, ... will not count towards the limit of 4", but p6 says the maximum occupancy is 3?

P38 6th bullet point refers to 4 units in a zone.

P39 I suggest adding 'hostile face' to the glossary.

P42  Ancient warfare isn't my strongpoint but surely trying to move side-ways when the enemy is in close proximity was always hugely risky.  I'd suggest this shouldn't be possible / more risky if there are enemy units in a touching zone (either the starting or finishing zone).

P42 Cavalry have to roll a 6 to leave scenery.  Including gentle hills?   The other terrain types would be obstacles but gentle hills are most certainly not an obstacle to cavalry (I used to ride in my younger days, admittedly not in cavalry units but in this instance I don't see much difference).  The same would apply to mounted skirmishers.

P47 Close order combined.  Can units can as supporting if they are in a fight of their own (whether resolved or not)?

Cheers,
Brian

It must be at least 4 or 5 hours a day (retired so no work time) but it depends on what you include (eg Kindle?)

I don't use antisocial media (not sure the last time I looked at arsebook but I get a number of mags, rules and references as PDF plus the odd book via Project Guttenburg etc.  I don't spend much time on forums but there's a number of interesting blogs I follow.  As I write a lot of rules & games for my own use, some articles, design maps, markers, etc that all adds up.  4 or 5 hours may be an under-estimate but I've long given up tracking where the day goes.

Brian

Thanks for the comments.  It's attractive as a new venture - in 54 years of wargaming I've never painted any ancients.  I was tempted after Peter Gilder's large 25s but money and time made it a non-starter.  And it would have been with WRG rules...

Brian

Given it seems unlikely that Martin is going to produce Byzantrines and Sassanids can anyone comment on the Essex 15mm range.  I've thought their figures looked a bit short in the leg in the past and the ECW musketeers doing the splits are farcical but in the images on the website lhese two ranges look to be to a good standard.

Thaks,
Brian

A few comments on v27

P7 Impaired Fall back still in dictionary though it's been deleted. (I rather liked the term)

P17  if units retreat off the table they take their casualties with them as there's no morale testing for units off-table.
But if a unit is destroyed the casualties are left on the table.  Should this be the same as unit's which have left the table?

P26 ...units consist of three bases.  Skirmishers (foot and mounted) are another exception

P33 the last two bullets points say the same thing but using different words

P37 Another reference to 'impaired fall back'rather than 'normal fallback not possible'.

P39  I'm wondering if, from the perspective of a wider audience, whether it wouldn't be better to restate "Any zone containing 2 or fewer bases in total will be pushed aside." As "If there are two or fewer bases in zone, they will be pushed aside by a force of at least 4 bases entering that zone."  Using zone for a fixed area of the table and for a number of units could be confusing if they don't speak Piggish.

P41 Falling back not possible.  This would probably be better added to section 9 Normal fall back not possible.

P42 having said that shooters cannot shoot at assaulters p43 then lays to an instance where they can – is this an exception or a mistake?  If it's an exception it would sense to combine the two into one place.

P44  makes clear that cavalry cannot do what skirmisher cavalry can do and it's easy to see why the question would be asked.  Why not avoid the question (here and possibly elsewhere) by renaming skirmisher cavalry as 'mounted skirmishers' or 'horse skirmishers' or some such?

P44  I have to say that if I wanted to check how artillery fire that I would turn to the shooting section rather than looking under troop types.

P50 Fight outcomes worth adding a reminder after the 4th bullet point to roll saving throws?

P51 Destroying a unit by rolling 9+ - it may be my failing memory but it seems unusual to roll 2d6 and add the scores in RCFM rules.  I'd make it clearer that what the player does.

Brian

hi Martin,

I like the feel of the game which seems pleasantly straight forward, reminds of the first version of Square Bashing.  I've never really been interested in ancients but I may have a play with some counters.  If only my favourite 15mm manufacturer did Byzantines and Sassanids!

Comments:
P8 – worth adding which are closed

P11 – 1st and 3rd examples are wrong

Perhaps just because it's bigger I prefer the 1st of the two tables

Worth mentioning that there is 'usually' only 1 elite unit.  Are there 'unusual' armies which can have more than one?

P12 points cost table here in error

P13 Base sizes "all units are zone or rectangular..." square?
worth mentioning the need for half bases so eg a unit I stwo full bases and 2 half bases?  Suggestion for size of casualty base?

P15 Brace shields – I don't understand the difference between the first two sentences

P18 Are pursuit losses in addition to 'impaired fall back losses'?  They both seem to cover the same situation

P19  Push or movement - I'd use one term

So if a general wants to give a gift to a unit he has a 1 in 6 chance of doing so?  Seems to be over-ruling the player's decision.  If he tries to award and fails does he still have the gift or is it lost?

P21 gneral hit – does this apply only if they are adding d6 to the fighting or if the general is in the zone (eg he was trying to get to the next one but rolled a 1?

P27 ...placed in a zone or line formation...  I don't understand what a zone formation is.

P28 worth adding for clarity that each cavalry unit can only get a maximum of one -1 modifier however many elephants there may be?

Do elephants affect units on their own side?  So don't team up cavalry and elephants in the same zone?

P30 piggy chase example – should be B not A in last two sentences

P36 Really like the idea of flanking.  Could both sides arrive in the same zone?

P39 – could I suggest moving the table to p38, before unopposed movement.

P42  units with bows are always counted as shield-less when shot at – does that include all skirmishers?

P43 – seems odd to say that hits are applied in the same way as fighting when that section is still to come.

The example of firing says that each close order unit gets 3d6 but the table above says 6d6

The saving throws – in the example I can't see how the saving roll of 3 as the basic roll is 4 – 6 and I can't see how it improves. 

P45 Triangular numbers – RCFM rules – entertaining and educational!  Presumably you can only get 4 late units if one of the units in the zone is an elephant.

P47 Fist line in 2nd para says that cavalry may attempt destruction but cavalry and CO inf may do so

P54 example is missing

I hope some of that is halpful.

Brian

hi Les,

I suspect that the imaginary squares with the figures on work on the same basis as Wille Cayote keeps on running until he realises he's over a chasm.  So, just keep imagining those squares, don't doubt them...

Brian