RFCM

RFCM discussion => Piggy Days and Competitions => Topic started by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 10, 2018, 09:27:18 AM

Title: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 10, 2018, 09:27:18 AM
Let's get the ball rolling. This is for next year. Big Game somewhere in Dorset to celebrate 75th Anniversary of 1944.  Sean suggested Arnehem ? There seems to be a good vibe about doing this. We all know the history and there 50-50 parts that are up for a fight that we can wargame and maybe rework the Historic Truth ! As the Germans so nearly done this year ? So we can represent 3-4 Aspects of the drive up to Arnehem ?
So everyone gets a chance to get vehicles, troops and scenery done for early next year, rather than rushing in the last 6 weeks beforehand !!! We need British Paratroopers, American Paratroopers some German Paratroopers ? British Armour, Guards and 11th Armoured divisions? And Germans with some weird and wonderfully tanks and vehicles ! ( char B flamethrower and other converted French tanks for secruity ?) As well as more normal tanks and infantry.
Do we want to go with this ?
Who wants to be involved ?
Who wants to take lead in any aspect of the preparations ? As this needs to be shared, otherwise it's all to consuming very quickly and puts people off doing it again !
Then eventually we can get forces needed and organised and scenery done at a more leisurely pace !
Then if we do agree with what we want to do which bits of the campaign do we want in ?
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on February 11, 2018, 09:27:26 AM
Arnhem does sound interesting.
British germans and Us.  There are lot in the possession of participants.
Scenery. Do you intend to have bridges.
Glider models. fair few in member's possession?
Are all the combat areas playable in terms of durtion and number of troops?
How many players.  12 to 16?
Are you going to d the drops? I suggest it might be a lump of wasted time?  Maybe just start the game with troops on the ground.
Leave out air power?
Decide how useful "bridge too far" is for reference by those playing. If it is pretty good the recommend that all watch it.  Suggest parts which are not accurate (if any). I mean tactical and strategic not minor /vehicle details.
Should some games start earlier than others?

All sounds very interesting.
This might be an area for PBI simplification like Mike did with opp/return shooting.
Game probably best doe in a dedicated place rather than enjoyment etc.


martin

PS  I painted a lot of US paras for Ardennes so I expect others have US and German stuff too.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on February 11, 2018, 01:26:13 PM
I have British and US paras + Lots of Armor
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on February 11, 2018, 01:37:09 PM
Hope they get out of the greenhouse ok.

And Micheal Caine survives!

Who's the lucky player who's going to get Frost's command, light work in the afternoon.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 11, 2018, 03:51:36 PM
My feeling would be to do a 3 group of tables.
One with “Hells Highway”  around Helmond just East of Eindhoven ? Or Groesbeek Heights ?east of Nijmegen. The battle trying to keep the road open and not being flanked by the Germans coming from Germany it self !
The Grenadier Guards and US paras fight to get to the Bridge In Nijmegen? Before the Bridge blows up ?
Then either the fight at the Bridge head at Arnhem itself or the fight around Oosterbeek trying to keep the “Pocket” open ?
That way the Germans as well as the Allies have things to gain ?
We know that they landed and we know that most of the Bridges were captured etc. As Micheal done with the Ardennes game we know certain parts of History have happened but it’s the points of contention that we need to try and fight out ?
The Allies need to establish all three “Tables” to win the game while the Germans need to Establish themselves on Two of the tables to win and say if the “Hells Highway” table gets cut off the Allies reinforcements get delayed ?
If we try to do the landings etc so much to Organise? So I would say a no go area ? And if we try and have a Bridge involved again problems with space etc ?
That’s my thoughts anyway ?
We need to keep the logistics down where possible? So we can concentrate on getting the game right and keeping it in the realms of the rules...
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on February 11, 2018, 05:24:24 PM
It sounds like things are starting to shape up nicely, Miles.

If you can start to get a feel of who's coming, what they're bringing, and therefore what's missing, I'm happy to have a go at painting up a force (and maybe doing some scenery too), with enough notice. Or maybe simply use this as an excuse to get my Late War Germans done...
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 11, 2018, 06:12:54 PM
Simon it would be better if you said" I am interested " and then you can say I Need to bring some Germans !!!
Then I would an even better idea on numbers ?
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on February 11, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
Simon it would be better if you said" I am interested " and then you can say I Need to bring some Germans !!!
Then I would an even better idea on numbers ?
Miles

Thank you Miles, that helps!

a) I am interested
b) I need to bring some Germans
c) these will be Volksgrenadiers (as I already have some in need of painting) unless instructed otherwise.

How's that?  :)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on February 11, 2018, 10:41:16 PM
Surely an approximation of the Arnhem bridge would be a focal point?
I did "do" the Arnhem drive some years ago. The Hartenstein hotel museum has some on line photos.  SPI did a very good version of te bridges. Maybe some one could buy it to get all the historic details, strengths and other stuff??
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 12, 2018, 05:17:36 AM
Well this is why I am starting the event now. We need to work out what we want to archive and what we can do to archive it. With laser cutters and MDF now doing a bridge isn't  such a Big thing now or at least part of ! Yes we must have a "table" with the British Paras on it. We must have a "table" that represents "Hells Highway" and another ? Yes we should have at least part of a Bridge on one of the table's as the game is about the Bridges !!!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on February 12, 2018, 09:19:03 AM
Maybe have one table that is only 2 foot wide but 8 feet long. That player could literally fight his way up the road?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on February 12, 2018, 05:35:04 PM
How about those german panzer units are not there, but merely old men and bicycles. German commander rols a D6 at game start. Score of 1,2,3 = no german frontline units there. Just two platoons of fortress infantry? Thus only 2 German players needed.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on February 12, 2018, 07:13:15 PM
How about those german panzer units are not there, but merely old men and bicycles. German commander rols a D6 at game start. Score of 1,2,3 = no german frontline units there. Just two platoons of fortress infantry? Thus only 2 German players needed.

Good idea, but perhaps not so good for Martin's sales of Germans figures?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 17, 2018, 06:55:00 AM
I think we have to game say on day 3 ?
History has dictated what has happened ? We need to be able to game so bits of the campaign that go under the title "what could have happened  if ?" That's why I am saying a Hells Highway table, Nijmegen type, and of course a section of the British Paras struggle to survive? We know roughly what was there and when etc , it's a case of WARGAMMERS  interpretation of the facts to fit the game and maybe the result ?
Like Mike done with the Ardennes Game, most of what we done had gone on in the history books, But ?
That's what made the game interesting ? We need to represent and assume certain things have gone on as the history books tell us. Game the bits that could go either way. Because history tells us that, up the the River Rhine the Allies had won, but by not capturing the Arnehem Bridge head the Allies had lost, Fact ?
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 24, 2018, 05:10:16 PM
Need some input please ?
The idea of Arnehem next year seems to be slowly rolling forward. Stewart has suggested a Big Beachhead Assault as well. So I think we should do both somehow or another ?
So I have suggested we can do Arnehem early next year ? And the Beach Assault would replace the PBI games day later next year ? As me and Colin were thinking of progressing Stewart's Beachhead assault game for some shows next year using a 6x4 table !
As both of these games require,Allied Tanks and troops and German Armour and troops of 1944 vintage this should make things easier for gamers on this Forum to help and particapate ???
We as a group need to help get troops and vehicles together for both of these events, as we showed we can for the Ardennes Game.
So I am suggesting that I take lead for the Arnehem game !
I would suggest Stewart takes Lead for the Big Beach Assault game.
But we All help in whatever field you are good at doing ? Even if it's painting 400 points of troops and forces or 3-4 templates needed for the game ??? Trust me any help is always welcome.
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on February 25, 2018, 10:42:21 AM
Miles,

This all sounds very good.

Is it worth sounding out folk who are likely to attend to see what they will be bringing, and thus start working out what we need over and above what people already have painted?

For starters, I will do a standard 1944 Volksgrenadier company with 3 StuG IIIs and 3 Pak 40s (so, probably rather more than 400 points), as this is what I have at the moment waiting to be painted.

If you'd like more done (Allied and/or German armour), please let me know. I'm also happy to do some scenery. The more warning the better, before I get distracted with anything else (and I still have to complete my Cattlemen for the Western Day, and Japanese for your 1943 PBI day....).
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 25, 2018, 10:54:51 AM
This is why I want to get started now, then things for next year can be factored in as the time goes by. Trust me if 3/4/5 of you do the same thing then we have a good start for both games ? I only quoted "400" as this being a basic requirement for a Normal game, most serious players always do "extras". Like you I have a 1943 army to get ready for September.
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on February 25, 2018, 11:29:53 AM
Excellent - so who's next to commit to bringing some stuff along next year and help Miles work out what we'll still be missing?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on February 25, 2018, 11:51:00 AM
Ben and I are up for it. Let me know the sides as happy to go either allied or axis?

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on February 25, 2018, 01:29:12 PM
Morning Miles
I will put together an OOB for the beach assault as I have run a 6ft game a few times.
I have mats and scenery for two 6ft games with room for 12 players, 6 per side.

Stewart
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Big Mike on February 25, 2018, 07:20:47 PM
I can supply 400 point armies for British Airborne, British Infantry, US Infantry, German Infantry, plus 3 Shermans, 4 Humber A/cs, 9 US/British Halftracks.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on February 27, 2018, 06:38:57 PM
Well there's a start. My list of British and German tanks could be rather large !
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: madaxeman on March 05, 2018, 01:50:59 PM
I've played Arnhem as a multi-player pseudo-campaign using PBI before - I think I found the idea in a magazine somewhere, so I can't claim credit for it.

It was 4-5 boards set up in a row, with the road to Arnhem running down the middle of them.

Most of the boards had a river & small bridge running at right angles to the road, with the final board (or 2) being the outskirts of Arnhem itself with the main bridge too.

Each board had Germans vs Paras fight on it, with one player per side

The "clever" bit was the XXX Corps was a "non player character" - a load of Shermans would dice to move down the road automatically unless/until they came to a spot with German infantry in an adjacent square, in which case they would stop and engage them.

So, the US Paras & others had 3-4 battles fighting to keep the road clear and the Germans had to fight to block it.

On the last table the British Paras had to first fight to get a foothold into Arnhem, and then in the next game fight to hang on in there for a couple of games whilst the Germans brought up more reserves each time.

There were some rules for the reinforcements/starting stances of the forces in each successive game - as in, if the US paras beat the Germans on the road they started the next game defending etc.

The victory conditions were that XXX Corps got to Arnhem before the paras were wiped out (of course..)

It worked really well - we played it (in 10mm) a couple of times, but again we are talking many, many years ago.

There are some photos here https://www.madaxeman.com/10mm/arnhem.php

 
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 05, 2018, 03:30:47 PM
That looked like a fun game, madaxeman! Thanks for your posting and link.

I'm intrigued by the choice of drinks on display too: did XXX Corps get the pint of beer while the Germans were all on orange juice? And did this choice of beverage affect the outcome at all?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 07, 2018, 07:55:28 PM
Well I was thinking about using the split table system 2 table's wide. The 3-4 table's for Hells Highway ! So that would be 6-8 table's in all. 2  table's for Nijmegen and 2 for Arnehem ( Oosterbeek) pocket ?So that would be 4 table's each maybe 6 if we are going to include part of the Bridge at Nijmegen ?
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on March 11, 2018, 02:50:09 PM
Some good background information.

 



Major and Mrs Holt's Battlefield Guide to Operation Market Garden

Pegasus Archive review: Major and Mrs Holt have long been setting the benchmark for superb battlefield guides, and this third edition, ambitiously covering the entire Operation Market Garden area, certainly adds to that reputation. Accompanied by a large map, it begins with a historical overview of the ill-fated campaign and is thereafter divided into five timed itineraries covering all of the principal sectors; beginning with the initial advance of XXX Corps, then the 101st Airborne Division at Eindhoven, the 82nd Airborne Division in the Groesbeek and Nijmegen areas, and finally the 1st Airborne Division and Polish Brigade around Arnhem. In all, no less than 325 places of interest are described, including museums, cemeteries and monuments, with a great many colour photographs scattered throughout, as well as directions and a concise but thorough and personal narrative accompanying each site. This book is a remarkable achievement, and it is difficult to imagine touring the battlefield in the company of anything else. Price £16.99. Copies may be purchased from Amazon or https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Major-And-Mrs-Holts-Battlefield-Guide-To-Operation-Market-Garden-Paperback/p/4228

 An interesting book.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on March 11, 2018, 03:01:15 PM
Much as its great to get all the powerful toys, Market Garden and PBI was about the infantry.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 11, 2018, 09:47:35 PM
Anthony Beevor is bringing out a book on this subject in May: "Arnhem: The Battle for the Bridges, 1944"

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arnhem-Battle-Bridges-Antony-Beevor/dp/0670918660/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1520804587&sr=1-1&keywords=arnhem&dpID=517gF96CSpL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

If it's as good as his other books, this one should be worth a read.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on March 12, 2018, 06:55:37 PM
Looks like a good read and if it follows his usual through writing as in the battle of the bulge it should show up a lot of things going on on all sides around this historic battle.

Got wait until May though.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Big Mike on March 12, 2018, 10:23:28 PM
"If you like Gliders you"ll like this....." The Museum of Army Aviation at Middle  Wallop. I have driven past the turning off the good old A303 many times (that road always sounds like a military reference) and last week I had the chance to visit the place as Miles cancelled our PBI game that afternoon. Many of you will have been to the museum but if not it is well worth an hour or two if you are passing.Plenty of good exhibits and helicopters. Scouts, Sycamores etc, as well as a Huey. The operations in Suez, Malaya,Aden and Cyprus are all well explained as well as the pre bi-plane period when the observer chappies used kites and camels. Best of all was the hall dedicated to the Glider troops. A short lived (quite literally for many of them) arm of our WW2 forces. Originals and mock ups of a Horsa, Hadrian and Hamilcar. Inspiring stuff for A Bridge Too Far.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 12, 2018, 10:42:35 PM
I went to a "Music in the Air" show there some years back (I believe these no longer take place?).

The rain grounded some of the aircraft (notably a Spitfire and a Mustang, as there was no visible horizon), but I have fond memories of a WW1 dogfight with reproduction planes; a French guy flying a microlight followed by a flock of geese, and the finale with a host of helicopters rolling in over the hills to the sound of the Ride of the Valkyries - stirring stuff!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 13, 2018, 10:13:37 AM
Here is a rough map of Hells Highway. On 4 x 2 (4x4) table's with a split in the middle. I 've tried to include most of the areas features.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 13, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
Les I did say at the beginning when I mentioned what we can use. British Paras, US Paras and German Paras ! Last I heard these are all infantry units with speacilists support ! Then of course the Guards division and some elements of the 11 th Armoured division which does include infantry. When it comes to the Guards by now they were using a one unit of tanks to one unit of infantry, Irish working with Irish, Welsh with the Welsh so on and so on. Then the Germans had a lot of infantry and on the left hand side of the route there was the remnants of an infantry division.
 So yes as Les and I recall myself saying PBI is an infantry game with supporting elements which does heavily include vehicles and AFV's . I also think we may even be able to include some (off table) artillery ON Table ???
To be honest without the infantry this game would fall flat on its face very very
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 24, 2018, 08:43:48 AM
The Celts are on there way. First of the Irish and some more Welsh Guards done.
Miles

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Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 24, 2018, 11:39:11 AM
You have been busy, Miles.

Rather nice hill they're sitting on, too!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 24, 2018, 01:12:59 PM
Hello Miles

with my bad eyesight i thought the upper picture was a tortoise!!

anyway, nice stiff Miles



Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: madaxeman on April 01, 2018, 11:16:03 PM
Well I was thinking about using the split table system 2 table's wide. The 3-4 table's for Hells Highway ! So that would be 6-8 table's in all. 2  table's for Nijmegen and 2 for Arnehem ( Oosterbeek) pocket ?So that would be 4 table's each maybe 6 if we are going to include part of the Bridge at Nijmegen ?
Miles

One of the tricks I have found with many of these multiplayer thingies is to make sure each individual game is still a legitimate battle in it's own right, and have the "campaign" element of things happen based on the conclusions of each of the individual games.

If there's a way of making it work through a series of games which are basic battles on standard tables that also has the advantage of making it easy for all concerned to get up to speed with whats going on, and it keeps things moving too - a whole series of standard sized games can essentially run on a timetable like a competition, meaning that you don't get some games running out of sync with the rest and slowing things down because they are "bigger".

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on April 02, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
Point taken, but when we done th Ardennes game, you can run several table's together along side each other, as the game is capable of going large. With that type of game as much it's a series of separate games you do need to know what it's going around you. As well as using the other table's around you too
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on April 02, 2018, 07:34:29 PM
Yes, agreed Miles: it was actually surprising (at least to me) how well the Ardennes game worked. It somehow managing to combine "individual" (-ish - it was possible to stray off one's nominal "table") games with the bigger campaign game all pretty seamlessly on the one mega-table!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: colin31dip on May 07, 2018, 09:23:06 AM
Finally sorted my login and read the thread.  I have Germans and British Paras to supply.  Can help with scenery if needed.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 07, 2018, 10:03:51 AM
And I see that Antony Beevor is due to release his book on "Arnhem: The Battle for the Bridges, 1944" on 17th May.

It's £17.50 in hardback, so I'll probably wait for the paperback to come out, but got a good review in the Sunday Times yesterday. It sounds as though he doesn't pull any punches in his critique of the British commanders...
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 25, 2018, 04:17:40 PM
It's £17.50 in hardback

Already reduced to £12 on Amazon.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 25, 2018, 04:19:42 PM
@Miles,

Are you considering doing as Big Mike did for the Ardennes Day and order up some matching gridded cloths?

I'm assuming we could get a pretty good deal from a supplier (tinywargames seem to do a good product and club deals) for such a number, and I'd be up for one :)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on May 26, 2018, 04:46:26 AM
Not sure, because Ardennes was more a speacilist period ie Snow. And Arnhem is more summer ish Europe. But not gone into a table issue, as i wanted to get the summer over before we get into everything. As people have been away, some not so well etc. Also a few events coming up, so e time to speak to people face to face and solve some issues etc.
Fisitcuffs (today) Square Bashing, Western, PBI and some shows.
I was hoping by PBI day we will have something of a time scale, venue and game ideas done, or a least the basic issues sorted.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 26, 2018, 10:41:59 AM
Thanks Miles, and understood.

However we achieve it, it would be nice to have something looking as consistent and "tied in" as the Ardennes Day tabletop, which really did enhance the whole gaming experience.

It may also save hassle in cat-herding cats to get playing mats if you have a bunch of willing buyers lined up to take some nice new shiny ones off your hands :)

Thank you for all your efforts in taking on the organisation of this event!

Simon
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on May 27, 2018, 09:36:50 PM
Scenery and  how it looks is always on top of my list. Have you not seen some of my games i put on ?
Me and Les were talking yesterday how each table set up must have players on and doing something ? In June when i get out to my storage shed and sort it out, i will start putting the type of buildings we will need for Nijmegen in to a seperate box.

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 27, 2018, 10:27:31 PM
Have you not seen some of my games i put on ?

Well, I think the first I've seen were the pictures from your excellent CWB session yesterday that you've just posted - very nice indeed, and I was not intending to imply any slight on what you would produce for the Arnhem / Nijmegan day! Apologies if I have inadvertently caused any offence.

Simon
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 03, 2018, 09:02:19 PM
No offence taken. But trust me when we put on games like this they will be the best one can Try and do at the time. Especially Scenery!
I ve included a quick map of the tables I was thinking about putting together.
Now just to bang a “rumour” on the head now. All 3 table set ups will be active all of the game. Nobody will be “ Standing around” doing nothing !!!!!!!!
 This will be day 2/3 of the action the Son Bridge has been rebuilt as a Pooton Bridge at which the Germans will try and destroy. This will be the first actions of Hells Highway table. The US Paras of 101st will be present on certain tables and the Germans on others. This is yet to be worked out.
 The next table is Nijmegen. The US 82 nd will try and get a foothold into the city. This may or may not have a “Bridge” in it.
 Then there is the “Prize”
Trying to get to the cut off British Paras who are holding a piece of the Rhine river that hopefully
British 30th corps can set up Pooton Bridges and maybe Win The WAR !!!!! The US and British Paras are fighting from the out set. So the “Top” tables are active at all times.
Sorry the map is basic but I have no computer so having to do this “ old School”
So the Paras have landed, 30th Corps is thru Enidoven they have re-opened the Son Bridge.
The Gap down the middle is where the access is for all tables that Micheal introduced at the Ardennes game.
I am trying to include all the main features of the Event without going OTT. Obviously Nijmegen will be an Urban table. Oosterbeek will be a bit of both and the British will be mainly  Infantry units and Veteran so they won’t die to easily as the odds are against them. 

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Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on June 04, 2018, 03:13:40 PM
When do you plan to list the oob that you want to see who can provide what
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 04, 2018, 04:35:16 PM
I was going to talk to people at
Square Bashing and your Western days see who is in and what they think they can do etc and then we can start doing serious planning from there.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on June 04, 2018, 07:37:06 PM
I'll continue the maps in a week or so after we've cut the hay.
Title: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 05, 2018, 09:28:03 PM
I am starting this as this needs to be as the title says. General chit chat at this game will continue on "A Bridge too Far" so game queries  chat about the rules etc please keep to the main feed !!!
There is a lot to organise.

So first of all the game:
Hell's Highway. This table will be a mix of small towns/villages with 2 main roads leading North with farms and rivers/canals and the odd windmill. This the main table consisting of 8 4x4 tables 4 up and 2 wide.
 Troops of the US airborne 101 st will be defending( including Easy company !). The British will be driving up from the south on both tables, mainly the Guards Armoured and Elements of the 11th Armoured. To help the 101st secure these boards.
Of course the Germans will be attacking from all sides to try and cut off the advance
For this we will need a commander of 101st US airbourne.
Commander for Guards Armoured and a Sub command for 11Th Armoured
For the Germans and Commander for the main German force inculding German Paratroopers and a hotch potched of German units including Armour, and infantry of allsorts.
Nijmegen. This table will be mainly Urban consisting of 4 4x4 tables 2 up 2 wide.
The Germans will be defending this table with the 82nd US airbourne attacking and hopefully joined by 30th Corp (not too much) later in the game
For this we will need a commander for Germans mainly SS and some local militia units.
And of course and commander for 82nd U S airbourne.
Oosterbeek/Arnhem. This will be a mixture of urban and forest consisiting of 4 4x4 tables 2 up and 2 wide.
The British Paras will be defending this with units coming in from both sides as cauldron closes in on them. There will be a British Para commander and one other both of these players will be on their own for most of the game fighting a desperate battle of Survival, trying to keep a stance on the northern bank of the river Rhine.
The Germans mainly SS will be coming in from the north and either side as their forces go from strength to strength including King Tigers later in the game.of course there will be a German  Commander needed on this table.
Of course there will be an overall commander for both sides and 3 umpires.
As you might have worked it out a lot of people will end up commanding some force or another depending on how many people play the game.

So i need to know who is likely to want to play next year and what side they would like to be on ? What you could likely provide for that force please ? And other possible forces please ?
As you might have guessed and i can put a good fair few British tanks on the table plus a fair few Germans tanks.
When Les comes up with some maps we can  start arranging scenary. I know i can provide a lot of the houses for Nijmegen.
Miles

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Stewart 46A on June 05, 2018, 09:39:53 PM
Miles I have British and US paras plus a couple of towed a/t guns for each
German Infantr, a/t guns, Tigers, Panthers, Pz 4 and 251 half tracks
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 05, 2018, 10:39:39 PM
Miles, I would like to join in the fun please.

I will be painting troops for the event, and had planned to do the Germans I've had kicking around for too long: 2 anti-tanks guns; 3 Stugs; full company of line infantry.

Of course, if you already have oodles of the above, I could do something else instead e.g. US or British paras, as I don't mind which side I'd play on.

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 06, 2018, 04:04:58 AM
No thats good Simon even if you were on the Allied side 2 Anti tank guns, 3 Stugs and German infantry company would be all good and welcomed. Once we have a plan of action then more specific weapons will be listed.
Basically what position would you like to hold ?
Do you fancy attacking or mainly defending ?  British, US or German ? 
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 06, 2018, 04:26:25 AM
I have started another listing on here, but it doesn't mean this one is abounded. The new listing is about Planning and Logistics, other queries are dealt with on here.
 This will be a big game and no one person can deal with everything. I have outlined the rough guide of table layout and what each table will require in forces and commanders etc. Who wants to defend ? Who wants to attack ? Who wants to be British,US or German ? I need to have a fairly good idea on these options please ? I ve onlined where we will need commanders for each table. If you fancy one of these i will later give you a more specific detail of what is expected of you.
The obvious ones. Being Guards Armoured commander you have to keep going all game North !!! No stopping ? British Paras will be to keep the baseline open and the ground a head clear, and you will be on your own ? What resources you have thats it for the whole game. You will be under constant attack !
Just to give you an idea? Who fancies what ?
Most of us gave seen the film and a lot of us have read the book ? Of course there are other books out there ? Antony Beevor has just brought out a good one ?
If you can give me a month please ? Once we have got Sq bashing and the Western day out the way, i would have had a good chance to have at least a quick one to one with the main players over the next 2 events. Then we can start working out what we need.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Stewart 46A on June 06, 2018, 07:34:22 AM
Sorry Miles I should have said I can swing with way and fill in where you like.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 06, 2018, 09:53:53 AM
No thats good Simon even if you were on the Allied side 2 Anti tank guns, 3 Stugs and German infantry company would be all good and welcomed. Once we have a plan of action then more specific weapons will be listed.
Basically what position would you like to hold ?
Do you fancy attacking or mainly defending ?  British, US or German ?

Thanks Miles. I'd ideally prefer to play with whatever troops I bring. So, if it's worth my while doing the Germans, I'll "defend" with them (except of course I'd be mostly counter-attacking :) ) . Is that OK?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: martin goddard on June 06, 2018, 03:52:01 PM
Hello Miles

Do consider how much time is needed to fight the tables.
Just some thoughts.
I do suggest that each player only has about a company to command.
A normal game of PBI with a company per side, takes most folk about 3 hours. Two companies will not take 6 hours but will probably need 4 hours or more.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 06, 2018, 06:41:14 PM
I am considering that. Hence why the next month need to talk to people and get some serious organisation going.
But i will say again please put these kind of conversations on the original" a bridge too far"  chat strain. 
Please not on Planning as this chat strain is needed for communication about planning and relevant subjects. Not chit chat
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 06, 2018, 07:03:25 PM
How ma y players are we looking at to make the game possible? 
Oosterbeek table:
British Paras 2 players to play them and 2 players to command and attack with 9th SS and local SS and milita units.

Nijmegen:
German 10th SS 2 players to defend against the US 82nd Paras at first, and the eventual might of 30th Corp.
2 players to Attack with 82nd US airborne into the city

Hells Highway:
2 players to command the 101st US airborne
2 players plus to command and move 30 th corps tanks and vehicles
Up to 4 Germans to command various counter attacking units which will include, Armoured Brigades, Paratroopers and various infantry units with interdication and being a general pain and break the route up.

 16 players plus overall commanders and umpires.
Is this achievable ? This would be a minimum requirement me thinks ? 

Now the other thing to think of is supplies ? How do we determine that a unit ? A company or platoon? Has used its supplies?
How do we Run Supply Lorries up and down the route to keep these units supplied ?
This is just a thought at the moment but it will be a factor in the game, especially if the Germans cut the road off, as they did for real....
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 06, 2018, 07:20:20 PM
Here is a rough list of how many people are required and what sort of positions need to be fulfilled as German,US and British players. Wether you need to be mainly defending or attacking ?
 Are you mainly an Attacking player ? Are you mainly Defensive player ? Have you got mainly British, Germans infantry and or tanks from each ?
British Paras and or US Paras ?
What sort of month people would like this to happen next year ? I'm thinking mid May ? Generally Good weather and light mornings and evenings to help people who have to travel distance that day ?

How many players are we looking at to make the game possible? 
Oosterbeek/Arnhem table:
British Paras 2 players to play them which of course they will be mainly defending.
2 players to command and attack with 9th SS and local SS and milita units.

Nijmegen:
German 10th SS 2 players to defend against the US 82nd Paras at first, and the eventual might of 30th Corp.
2 players to Attack with 82nd US airborne into the city

Hells Highway:
2 players to command the 101st US airborne
2 players plus to command and move 30 th corps tanks and vehicles
Up to 4 Germans to command various counter attacking units which will include, Armoured Brigades, Paratroopers and various infantry units with interdication and being a general pain and break the route up.

 16 players plus overall commanders and umpires.

So please give me some feedback on here or to my email address. I need to know what is possible and what is not, and try and arrange this when most people will be free and in this country to play the game, as some people will gave to travel distance and even stay down here etc.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Big Mike on June 09, 2018, 09:11:21 AM
Miles,
Good idea to firm up on specified fights now. Miles, I have a British Para Company with 3 X 6Pdrs and will be happy to command these at Oosterbeek.  For the Ardennes game we allocated players to their units, but in this game Miles is giving us the opportunity to choose the ground on which  we fight.
People, please commit to this and give Miles your support. Of course we need a date and cost etc,and life is uncertain but come down off the fence and say yes!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 09, 2018, 09:16:22 AM
So, I'll opt to lead my line Germans (which will force me to paint them up...) on Hells Highway - "being a general pain" probably sums up my preferred mode of operation.

How's that for a specific commitment?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Leslie BT on June 09, 2018, 12:07:57 PM
Brillant Simon.

Miles have you decided on the OB' and particular army lists for the various forces, for each of the fights to reflect the units on the day.

if Simon is going to build a German force for Hell's Highway are they going to be veterans or raw?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Leslie BT on June 09, 2018, 12:11:00 PM
Miles have you asked Mike for the lists that were sent to him when he requested the troops they everyone had available.

That should give a flavour of the forces available and allow you to ask for specific units needed for these scenarios.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 09, 2018, 01:36:31 PM
if Simon is going to build a German force for Hell's Highway are they going to be veterans or raw?

What a great point, Les - the reluctant painter in me is hoping the answer is "veteran" :)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Big Mike on June 10, 2018, 12:52:26 PM
Les, you have just proved you are the top military planner of our time!
Yes I have the lists. Miles they being encrypted as we speak and will be dropped by a Lysander in field near you.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far: Planning and Logistics
Post by: Leslie BT on June 10, 2018, 04:42:50 PM
Just so long as its a Lysander rather than a V2.

At least its a starting point. As the periods are so cclose, scenery will be a different case as there will be no snow!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 19, 2018, 05:26:54 AM
 Just to keep you up to date. Myself, Les and Michael have formed a "committee" for ABTF. Now we were going goid until it came to when we should have it ? January is favoured by Les and Michael. Because January isca quiet wargamming month, point taken. Also on the cards for next year is Stewart's Beach Assault game. So to coincide with what Stewart wanted to put on and what Colin and Myself were putting on for a couple of the shows next year. 2019 dates TBC
 Beach Assault game in January 19/20 or 26/27 at Entoyment. 12ft frontage minium 4 players a side. Stewart and myself will come up with OOB for both sides in the next few weeks.
 A Bridge Too Far game in September 21/22 or 28/29. This will by a Mega game. For this event only as it is quite a speacil type of game. Again working OOB will be out in the next few weeks so people know what is required and start generating units.
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 19, 2018, 06:06:03 AM
Thank you, Miles - that's very useful to have these date firming up to be able to plan attendance / painting up the little lead men.

Once we have definitive dates, I'll post them up on the Forum News section.

Thanks too to Mike, Les and Stewart for aiding and abetting Miles - a huge amount of planning must go into these events.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on June 19, 2018, 05:26:21 PM
We have only just started especially on ABTF ? Thats why we shall get the Beach assault game is first. Stewart has done a lot of the ground work, so its only getting some forces together and things.... i will talk to everyone at Sq Bashing day about what is happening and firm up some other points, which is easier face to face. Once people their know what is happening it will be easier to talk to others and get more on board.
 I know these dates seem a long way away ??? But now is the time to start saying i am washing my hair, grooming the cat or going away on holiday ? Their is enough lead time to tell your partners i am busy that weekend ? Because before too long it will be Xmas you know the rest !!! Because if i dont get anyone telling me why they cant attend any of these dates one from each pair will stand ! I will be firming these dates up within next 4/5/6 weeks ??? Once Entoyment have moved and settled and we can see what space we have etc.
Gentlemen these events will happen its up to you to help make them Good ?....
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on June 19, 2018, 09:22:23 PM
Miles I have emailed you and Colin the OOB I used for my beach assault.
I hav3 all the troops listed, for the allies I have 1/2 US and 1/2 British so we need to double the forces for a 12ft game with a British beach and a US beach
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on June 25, 2018, 11:17:51 AM
Miles: thank you for your continued efforts in getting the Arnhem show on the road (and good to see you at the Square Bashing event on Saturday). You asked for us to clarify
force, posture, table and dates (a 2-day event was even mentioned as a possibility). So, to get the ball rolling, here are mine:
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Big Mike on June 29, 2018, 01:42:04 PM
Miles,
Although I was absent from SB I have confirmed that either of the 2 weekends is fine for me. I have opted to defend with British Airborne at Oosterbeek. However, I can also provide or fight withBritish or German infantry on a different table if required.
Your are right about the time soon going. In the meantime I can get my cat looking smart for it's annual holiday.
Michael
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on July 01, 2018, 07:17:56 AM
Well from the feedback i ve had. Saturday 21st or 28th September next year. For A Bridge Too Far. See what Peter says at Entoyment next week, when we are there fighting the Wild West.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on July 01, 2018, 06:55:08 PM
If it helps with counting commitments  i would opt for 28th September 2019 but the other date is fine too.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on July 21, 2018, 02:09:35 PM
Just in case people thought it's quite on the Belgium border ? I will be back on task early next month, i will get rough OOBs out for the forces needed. As doing these pirate ships especially the" Black Pearl " has taken over everything. As i need a force to start play testing with. The Black Pearl has nearly become a complete rebuild, as you might see in pictures in another part of the forum.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 01, 2018, 08:07:48 PM
Miles: from the link that Mr Lurkio kindly provided relating to scenery, I think we may need some of these for the Arnhem game, if only for the look of the thing:

https://warbases.co.uk/?product=horsa-glider-15mm
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 01, 2018, 08:22:37 PM
I have a couple from armaments in miniature in the states. I think Mike H and Martin G have some as well
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Sean Clark on December 01, 2018, 09:25:52 PM
I think I might get a couple of them.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 02, 2018, 07:05:43 AM
I spoke to some of the guys at Entoyment yesterday. Like Les said doing the 3 sets of tables is too much for us. Hell's Highway, Nijmegan and Arnhem.
I suggest like Big Mikes Arndennes game we concentrate on doing Hell's Highway.
Let the other 2 tables be covered by 20mm boys. But what we can do is also run this over 2 days. Our table on the Saturday, with the Allies hopefully getting the result they need. As in getting off the end of the table at Grave and being able to enter Nijmegan.
Then let the 20mm boys do there thing on the Sunday. That way people from both scales can get  involved, hopefully giving each day that extra few bods they would rather have to run these games. Because not everyone can do Both days or the Saturday or the Sunday.
 Yes we can have some gliders as Scenery pieces as the advance of the table would be going past some of the American landing sites, no doubt.
Any thoughts please ? After Xmas we will need to start committing our selves towards getting this game on the road for September.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 02, 2018, 10:19:13 PM
Let me have a go at summarising here Miles.
If i have it wrong then just put me right Miles.

I have put down a bunch of assumptions. 
So that the true detail can replace those assumptions.
Thus giving something firm and concrete.

1.
Day 1=(Saturday) September 2019.
Games= associated with the link road (Hell's Highway) .
Scale=15mm
Rules=  PBI
Players =A team of 6 players.
Tables = 2
Organiser= Miles
Venue=Entoyment
Scenery= Roads, country side and minor bridges. Grave, Son

2.
Day 2 =(Sunday)
Games=doing the fighting at Arnhem town.
Scale= 20mm
Rules= Rapid fire
Players= A different team of 6 players.
Tables=2
Organiser= Miles
Venue=Entoyment
Scenery= Arnhem bridge, town and Osterbeck landing ground

As stated, there is plenty of time before September 75th anniversary.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 02, 2018, 10:26:29 PM
I suggest this all begins in a new thread so that it is very clearly labelled or "organising the event". 
Then all the conversation is about what will happen. This present thread is 6 pages already with lots of peripheral and extraneous detail.
Would day 1 be called "15mm Arnhem" and day 2 "20mm Arnhem" or the other way around. The days cannot be split into market and garden because they overlap physically.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 02, 2018, 10:30:01 PM
Think i should comment here!
I agree with the previous poster.

1. It would be nice for at least one end of the Arnhem bridge to be modelled as it is iconic.
2. Would like to see plenty of gliders here and there.
3. Cloths can be green. Nice and common

An impressive Arnhem game was put on at CRISIS Antwerp by a Dorset club. Plenty of internet pictures
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 02, 2018, 10:30:41 PM
I also agree with that man.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 02, 2018, 10:38:55 PM
http://snv-ttm.blogspot.com/p/arnhem-crisis-2005.html

https://wargamesgazette.com/2018/11/04/crisis-2018-photoreport/

old pikeys
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 03, 2018, 04:07:00 AM
2 tables ! 8 Tables plus all the the set up tables. This game is going to be as big as the Ardennes game. From the Son bridge up to Grave Bridge. 30 plus miles in real life. 4 tables up and 2 tables wide. Maybe even 5 tables ? So it would include elements of Guards Armoured Division and flanking moves of 11th Armoured Divisions thrusts up towards Arnhem.
Then the fight into Nijmegan and Arnhem woukd be done on the Sunday mainly by 20 mm boys. Using Battlegroup rules and they would be burrowing the "Old Pikeys" Arnhem table set up.not sure about Nijmegan how that's going to be covered as yet. So Stuart's "River Crossing" could still be in. But these would have to be done the next day. Too much to cover in one day and too many people to cope with in one day. 
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on December 03, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
Good luck Miles. Sounds like you have it in hand. 
All i need to do is reserve a date on my calendar. 
Any ideas yet on a date??
"Colours" wargames show is on in September 2019 too. Cannot think of any other gaming events to be aware of. There might be some national commemoration event in September, which you might either want to coincide with or avoid.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on December 07, 2018, 08:59:28 PM
here's an interesting link to a large multiplayer wargame, I know its not our period but it does show the work for a large game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbh4G5RUqbY&feature=youtu.be

It will give Martin some work in getting it all videoed!!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 08, 2018, 09:35:46 AM
I know Martin, i always look at Show dates first, before i "plan" Our events. That's why i can say the weekend of 20/21/22 September is good. Its the weekend  which is corresponding to Arnhem, as near as i can get it. 75 years to the day. As the battle we are doing is day 3 and the orginal operation started on 17th September, that pretty damn close i would say !!!
 I will state now. Unless other people want to take on the modelling and gaming projects. The Para landings are out. The Glider landings are out. Arnhem Bridge is out. As these are massive undertakings in Modelling terms and Gaming Terms.
I am trying to make this a project we can actual achieve.
Like Mike did with Ardennes, you can only do "snap shots" of a big event, you cannot do the "Whole" thing.
 If other people on this forum want to do other parts of this adventure please do.
But after looking at the history and facts etc. That's why i am starting it  just after the Son Bailey Bridge was constructed. Reality of the situation had set in, from all parties. Its a slog to get up the road, The Germans as well as the British are both on the Attack ! With the US Airbourne the "Defenders" as such. Which puts a slightly different dynamic to the game ? Everyone has to be Offensive in Stature ! No one can afford to give ground !
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 08, 2018, 02:09:53 PM
Very good Miles, when do you plan to list the forces required so you know who can provide what?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on December 08, 2018, 02:39:29 PM
Have now an updated set of table layouts?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 08, 2018, 05:17:17 PM
When I have time to sit down young Stewart. I know my compartrates in Weymouth don’t do as much as us. But we the other side of Dorset do a lot and with everything else I am doing. This side of Xmas is out. I can’t get the lists out until February. At the earliest. Unfortunately I took on a bit too much wargaming tasks 6 weeks ago and I am now paying for it in time. I ve got the British tanks for Beachhead to start next week. When I am not working, or on a treadmill I  will be painting and making them.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 08, 2018, 06:11:31 PM
What game are you putting on at beachhead?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 08, 2018, 06:42:30 PM
Beach head Assault. Juno Beach
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 08, 2018, 07:10:42 PM
Oh, I thought we were doing this as a group on 2 6ft tables (British) & (American) next year?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 09, 2018, 07:30:09 AM
Yes we are. But i did say that me and Colin and Mike were putting the game on at Beachead too, and maybe a couple of other venues too. As it is 75 th Anniversery of -944
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 09, 2018, 08:00:33 PM
Speaking to Peter and others at Entoyment. Arnhem weekend in on. Friday20,21,22 September.we as a group can do Hells Highway on the Saturday. Oosterbeck is being done by the 20mm Battlegroup as they can burrow a big board with most of the scenary on already. There is Arnhem Bridge itself and Nijmegen, left to be done
 Also found out that Dday in June will be another weekend that is being done so we can agree to do a beach or two as well. 
Title: PBI Day A Bridge too far
Post by: Leslie BT on December 13, 2018, 01:58:04 PM
Here is a good discussion about the event, by three wargamers.

http://afewbritsandthehobby.libsyn.com/episode-26-operation-market-garden
Title: Re: PBI Day A Bridge too far
Post by: Sean Clark on December 20, 2018, 01:45:15 PM
I have just found my old copy of the Rapid Fire campaign guide for Market Garden. It has 8 linked scenarios running from Joe's Bridge through to the last defence around Oosterbeek. There is also a 'grand' scenario intended to be fought on a 16' table which condenses the campaign down to be fought in a smaller space running from Wolfhezze close to the landing zones through to the bridge. It features the whole of the airborne Divison. I wonder if there might be something usable to convert for our purposes. Admittedly Rapid Fire is played at a higher level where a company is represented by 8 figures so some adjustments would be required....
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on December 20, 2018, 06:03:12 PM
Great Sean, these usually have a good extract of the units involved and their state of readiness and whether or not they were up to strength.

Did you ever plan any or all of the scenarios?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Sean Clark on December 20, 2018, 07:46:40 PM
No but I could look at trying out one of them.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 21, 2018, 04:16:32 AM
Already have that book Sean. Yes already looked at at it and was going to use it to help us do our tables.
The 20 mm boys have got a 16' x 6' table already with Oosterbeek on it from the Pickey boys who play funnly enough "rapid fire"
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 21, 2018, 10:22:23 PM
Miles, have you come across the Pegasus Archive:

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/arnhem/frames.htm  ?

It promises "a complete Order of Battle for Allied and German units in the Market Garden area". I can't vouch for this, but there is a lot of detail, including photos, war diaries, unit histories, detailed descriptions of the battle, etc. But sadly no maps that I could find.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 22, 2018, 11:03:05 AM
Thanks i will compare that with information i already have.
But like i said for the moment, i am now dealing with Beachhead, and working out the tanks we need for the game. So with Xmas, the 3 weeks of work after( hate this !) The month beforehand getting the (hopefully) models made for the event.
Title: A Bridge Too Far or street fighting in Stalingrad?
Post by: Leslie BT on January 09, 2019, 07:41:26 PM
So now we are into a new year, Happy New Year, Belle et Heureuse Annee Deuxmille Dix Neuf.
Where are the outlines for the big WW2 game this year, Is there a list of troops required, of terrain required, special features required?

Is it still Arnhem or is it now Stalingrad?

Beachhead is planned and done.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on January 23, 2019, 06:53:29 PM
How are the requirements for the game coming along.

Are the dates Friday 20, Saturday 21, Sunday 22 September still the ones that are booked.

What is the programme for the 15mm players for the three days?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 10, 2019, 08:10:13 PM
The "missing" order of battle from Mr Beevor's Arnhem book is available online here:

http://www.antonybeevor.com/order-of-battle-operation-market-garden/

It looks to be pretty comprehensive (it's certainly long!): I wonder whether the printers were supposed to include it and somehow forgot.

Anyway, it's hopefully going to be useful for this year's game.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 11, 2019, 04:48:18 AM
Thats a more comprehensive list to the other one you gave us a while back.
I was thinking that it might be better to do certain parts of the Hells Highway. The battle over the Son Bridge ? I found a lovely 1/87th Bailey Bridge. The Battle of Helmond, Easy company and 11th Armoured division (episode 4 BofB) Stewarts crossing of Waal river and another battle ? Paras at Arnhem Bridge itself ? Or where ever ?
As this Gold Beach game has taken a lot more of my time than i ever anticapated....
We need to put on some games for the weekend(s) in June and September at Entoyment.
As we need to put on 2 games at Entoyment for June (DDay) weekend. Colin, myself and Micheal have Gold Beach, we will need some more players to play the game, Stewart was thinging about a Peagus Brudge tyoe game. I was thinking maybe a Villers Bocage game for the next day ? Across 2 PBI tables ? The British defending and the Germans attacking ? The British units woukd be on the table but you bring them up to strenght in the normal  reinforcement phase ? All British forces woukd be Motorised !  But as Wittman travels down the table he might "shoot off" chuncks of your force if your too slow bringing them too the table ?
The Germans woukd also have Reinforcements turns like the defender as we know their forces didnt all arrive at once ? So it woukd be a race to see who can bring their forces up to "full" strenght the quickest ?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 13, 2019, 01:06:20 PM
Miles,

Glad you liked the Beevor Order of Battle - it looked good to me!

Thanks for all these PBI thoughts too. A few comments / thoughts of my own:

 - as we saw with the Ardennes event, a 2-"day" game, with something happening (reinforcement arrival, progression onto a new table, etc.) on the second game-time day can work well and is fun - your plan for Villers-Bocage sounds good!
 - the Market Garden bridges could look spectacular, but will take up a lot of table space, when we're generally concerned about action at one end or the other (or both!)
 - a Hell's Highway "duck-shoot" game might work well - do you stop and risk getting blown up and blocking the road while dealing with ever-reinforced Germans, or do you try and escape towards Arnhem at the far end of the (long?) table?
 - a scenario around Frost's battlegroup in Arnhem itself should be fun


Incidentally, I stumbled across this detailed online Villers-Bocage write-up, by Major General Michael Reynolds:

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/disaster-at-villers-bocage-wittmanns-tigers-vs-the-desert-rats/

Might be helpful?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Sean Clark on March 13, 2019, 06:02:10 PM
Can any one remember the Market Garden game put on by I think the Ponders End group using an older version of PBI. Martin took part I think. XXX corps being passed from table to table aiming to get the end table where Arnhem bridge was. I think there was a problem with the amount of terrain on each table.


Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 13, 2019, 09:16:36 PM
The Gold Beach game and the tank building for it has taken a lot longer than anticapated. So what i was hoping to present as a game for the Arnhem game has been chopped. As it needed 6 months of my full attention. Also DDay commitments have come up as well. As Entoyment are going to do a games weekend for for both events. To be confirmed.
 Gold Beach( over 2 tables) game and Peter wants an after invasion game. So Villers Bocage(over 2-3 tables)(as this is relatively easy to set up and do).
Arnhem i was thinking Battle of Son (Zon)Bridge (over 2 tables), newly constructed Bailey Bridge. I found a lovey 1/87th Bailey Bridge you can buy. Also Easy Company and elements of 11 Armoured division at the Battle of Neunen, both would make ecelent PBI games leaving space for a couple of other games a long the corridor of Hells Highway and beyond ???
Stewarts River crossing ? Martins Arnhem Bridge ? Nijmegen Bridge crossing ?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on March 13, 2019, 10:16:14 PM
Hi Miles, I was going to help you with hells high way if I am free, to far ahead to say if I am working or not.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 14, 2019, 04:43:46 AM
I am not abandoning Hells Highway as such. But very much duming it down. To a series of managable little games that can be played over that weekend in September. Because in reality we would have need 16-20 players for my orginal idea, where as we would only need about 6 on any given day for these games i propose which is a realistic target. Also these games would also include things that most people have right now rather than buildind a load of extras.
I ve now come across to Bailey Bridge models that would make the "newly" constructed bridge. Then i would have to make a canal/river section to put along the board but every thing else i know i got or could get hold of. 
Plus we can keep these games more to a normal PBI game, without having to have too many "house" rules to contol them, even though they will be probaly be up 800 points each rather than the normal 400, but over 2=3 tables each.
Example the Battle of Nuenen will involve about 6 British tanks with supporting  British troops and Easy compay, against up to about 6 panthers plus supporting troops and local guards in prepared defences.
The Son Bridge game would be roughly similar forces, as it was the same panthers that went on to attack the bridge after the battle with Easy company !
These 2 games are only good examples of what can be done thst woukd look good, play well and are easily put together with what is too hand given the time.
Same with the River crossing game that you (Stewart) wants to put on ! We can use the Hammering Iron mats for that, and get Martin to cast a few boats for us in resin or metal ?
I know Martin was keen on doing an Arnhem bridge type game, its not impossible, hard work over the next few months but not impossible.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on March 14, 2019, 07:31:21 AM
Ok, I have an Airfix bridge, I may have found some boats that would do, how many would you want for the assult?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 14, 2019, 08:13:58 AM
All those ideas sound good Miles. This shoaled be good to see.
 
Hope i did not give the impression i was going to make an Arnhem bridge.  That would be very wrong. it would be difficult scenery piece to use again.
If someone else makes an Arnhem bridge I will happily play the game though.

If you split the highway game into smaller games that is a good idea.
I would suggest that you list the smaller actions.

Then get  people to volunteer for which one they would run.
This might prevent 2 of the same game or an overlap with what Peter at Entoyment has already booked in (Is it published what other groups are doing? What other groups are involved? Is Peter himself organising it or someone else?)).
If you do that, gamers can get on with the job without you needing to supply troops, terrain and associated materials?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 14, 2019, 02:34:31 PM
Guys, I am happy to have a go at building an Arnhem Bridge, something like War games Illustrated did in Feb 2010. I have time on my hands at the moment so let me know?

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 14, 2019, 03:33:36 PM
If you build it we will come.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 14, 2019, 03:59:08 PM
Will give it a go, not promising a art work, but will be playable.

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 14, 2019, 07:35:01 PM
What we need to do is make a Realistic list of playable games that could be put on that weekend in September.
I propose a battle of Nuenen (re Easy Company. BoB episod 4 Replacements)
The battle of Son Bailey Bridge.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 14, 2019, 08:16:54 PM
Well I won't start unless it is needed,as it's a lot of work for nothing! Let me know in the next couple of weeks of you want me to crack on.

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 14, 2019, 09:21:27 PM
Crack on with the Arnhem bridge Dave.
You and I can play it to death i am sure.
Miles can get Nuenen  done and anyone else who is up for it can do the Son bridge.
The trick is to fix the target and go for it.

How does that sound?
Gives 5 months. Loads of time.

Dave, if you get the Arnhem bridge done soon, you can put it on at the D day weekend, Bovington etc  too.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 14, 2019, 10:29:37 PM
The hammer and nails are out of the garage and ready to go. Will crack on next week!

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 15, 2019, 04:30:21 AM
What are you going to use for the girder construction?  I have no ideas.  Thee should be plenty of pictures on the internet. maybe stills from the film too?  I have been there and it is quite big.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 15, 2019, 10:22:59 AM
I have an MDF girder bridge (shell) which an old friend gave me when he sold his model shop. So that will be the foundation, will make some plaster pillars and see how it comes together. And 6 inch nails just to hold it all together!

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 15, 2019, 06:14:06 PM
I ll will do Son Bridge as well as Nuenen as these would be 2 battles with the 2 battles being one after another.  The only big thing i ve got to build is the canal, as i can get the bailey bridge as a kit.
Who has got any Airfix Pontoon Bridge boats ? I know i have 4.  As Stewart and myself have been talking about the famous assault over the River WAAL by the US Paras. We need about 20 i tnink
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 15, 2019, 06:22:16 PM
Wardy if you need any "Town" houses (3storey type) i have quite few, the German and Polish makes 1/87th ho/oo scales very suitable for 15mm. Most are made up and second hand so they look realistic
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on March 15, 2019, 06:25:32 PM
Thanks Miles, once I get the board laid out they could be most welcome.

Wardy
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 15, 2019, 06:31:49 PM
Ok no problem. When i ll get a chance in the next few weeks, i ll get out what would be the most suitable buildings.
Next question.
Who has British Paras ?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Big Mike on March 15, 2019, 07:33:03 PM
Miles, I have British Paras. Stewart is looking for some Horsas for his Pegasus Bridge game so we could double up with this game. There are resin models about but how about 3D printing some if we share around the cost ? Colin, is this a possibility?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on March 15, 2019, 07:36:00 PM
Mike I have two gliders only need a third, the Pegasus bridge game is for June , I think the Arnhem game is for September
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 15, 2019, 09:56:50 PM
I have some brit paras. 3platoons worth.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 16, 2019, 07:24:25 AM
To stop the confusion here. A quick list of possible up coming battles and events.
 In June,it is 75 th Anniversery of DDay. That is Battles in and around Normandy. Invasion of France 1944.
So this includes battles and events on the 5th/6th June and the next few days just after the intiatal invasion.
 In September, it is the 75th Anniversery of Battle of Arnhem, that is Invasion of Holland 1944. So this includes battles and events that happened during and after 17th September. This can includes the Guards armoured, 11th Armoured and also 7th Armoured divisions as all 3 divisions had there part to play in the Invasion of Holland.
Hopefully these events will be held at Entoyment on the weekends of 7/8/9 June for DDay related games.
20/21/22 September for Arnhem related games.
So those that need to wash their hair on these dates please make note.... For those that dont have hair ? ( like me! ) please make note and hopefully can particapate on these weekends in some capacity.
Hopefully before each of the dated weekends we might be able to have a few dry runs at Entoyment of some of the intented games to be played.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on March 16, 2019, 08:24:11 PM
I will not be over for the June games as I am involved in commemorations here in Ouistreham, Caen, and Carentan.

These are the ones we know about so far.

I am going to another commemoration in Moyon in August this is to commemorate their liberation.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on March 17, 2019, 07:57:26 AM
Talking Carentan, i dont really know a great deal on that battle ? It was quite an important battle as well. If anyone has any info on it or can point me in the right direction please ? Maps ? OoB ?
It would be a good battle to do at some point as it seems there was a lot of infantry involved with some armour support rather than the other way round, which suits PBI better.
I know a few people have US as well as US Para armies out there.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on March 17, 2019, 10:39:42 AM
I shall certainly pop in on the D day weekend, to see what is afoot!
All sounds pretty impressive so far.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on March 17, 2019, 01:21:58 PM
Carentan.

This will give you taste for the town battle. https://www.matakishi.net/carentan.html
This is where the american para's were dropped. The area is all marshes that were drained by a rivers La Taute, La Douve, Canal des Espagnols and the Canal de Carentan a la Mer.
The german prevented the Canal de Carentan a la Mer from draining to the sea and the whole area is called the Marais de Cotentin, it is a large wet land that is about half the width of the base of the Cherbourg peninsula.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on March 17, 2019, 02:00:03 PM
Miles,

The Wikipedia entry might be a good start for research?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Carentan


There are various things online - for example, here's a useful-looking article with some maps:

https://history.army.mil/books/wwii/utah/utah5.htm
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on May 05, 2019, 08:40:07 PM
Had the grankids  today , can we use this?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on May 06, 2019, 09:33:02 AM
That is excellent Stewart.  It will attract the rail modeller gamer and active players too.  Is this going to club?
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on May 06, 2019, 11:11:52 AM
You will have to ask my grandchildren and it may take awhile to set up.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: madaxeman on May 07, 2019, 05:24:00 PM
Can any one remember the Market Garden game put on by I think the Ponders End group using an older version of PBI. Martin took part I think. XXX corps being passed from table to table aiming to get the end table where Arnhem bridge was. I think there was a problem with the amount of terrain on each table.

Yep, I've done it as well on a couple of occasions https://www.madaxeman.com/10mm/arnhem.php being one.

The basic gist was:
- 3 or 4 tables, one is Arnhem with the bridge at one side of it, the others are the Road to Arnhem with a transverse road, usually a bank either side of it as the main bit of terrain and a river across it to make life interesting. 
- XXXCorps is a non-player character that moves along the central road each turn (with basic dice rolls) unless the Germans are within 1 square of their route. If the Germans are that close the tanks then come under the control of the Allied player on that table.
- The mission of the allies is to keep the Germans at least 1 square away from the road at all times so the tanks move forwards

- On the "Arnhem" table you have an initial 'assault" scenario with teh Paras going in, and then a series of German counterattacks with increasing quality of opposition.

- Over the course of 2-4 games the Paras simply still have to be alive and holding the bridgehead when XXX Corps makes it to them. This means that the first and second tables probably end up not being fought over in the 2nd and 3rd (or even 4th) round of games as XXX Corps is through them (ideally!) by then.

You could therefore do a 'lite' version with 3 tables and 6 players initially, reducing to 4 players in the 2nd and 3rd games.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on May 26, 2019, 03:14:06 PM
There was a posting on TMP yesterday linking to a Market Garden mini-campaign here: http://analoguewargames.blogspot.com/ [the Sunday 24th February 2019 entry].

This has Ordnance Survey-style maps as well as orders of battle that look as though they could probably translate fairly readily into PBI.

Some of these elements could be useful for your plans in due course, Miles?

Simon
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on May 27, 2019, 02:15:06 PM
Given my current morphine fuelled world, please excuse my thoughts to expand Arnhem!

Would it be worth adding a second table 6x4 to my bridge layout (6x4) as the landing zone around Oosterbeek. I have a green 6x4 cloth that is gridded, we could then have the British Para's landing and holding the landing zone as well as the bridge game. Would need a few more players but would make a nice scenario, especially with Miles plans for the US sector?

Dave
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on July 15, 2019, 04:24:00 AM
I think Oosterbeek is being done in 20 mm ?
Martin will know as he is now organising the event for 21st September.
But I would say no, as it it a separate game and you  would better off concertrating on the main bridge.
One thing I have learned keep the games small, and centered around a few people playing, it is a lot easier to do.
The game I intend to do is a 2 parter, but will do part 2 as a Saturday game next year maybe ? Taking on Son(Zon) Bridge.
Title: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: martin goddard on July 18, 2019, 04:48:56 PM
I have just started to organise the Arnhem day at Entoymnet.
21st September 2019.
Let me know if you would like to receive the broadcast sheet I am sending out. I do forget people, sorry.
It will be constantly revised and re-sent.
dave has already volunteered to parachute into the Entoymnet parking lot. Thanks Dave.

martin
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Leslie BT on July 18, 2019, 07:14:05 PM
I am sure Dave will enjoy the day out.


Poole hospitals not far away if it all goes wrong!!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on July 18, 2019, 07:17:48 PM
Ready to HALO.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on August 11, 2019, 12:19:20 PM
This is mainly those that are playing the Band of Brothers and 11th Armoured reconnaissance force, meeting Engagement at Nuenen
with elements of the left flank of Panzerbrigade 107.
Initially it was myself, Colin and Mike, now Simon wants to join us on the day.
 So I am going to set up a 6 x 4 table. PBI rules as per book.
Artillery will be limited ( halve British asset points,only after turn 4 ???)
as this was more a meeting Engagement,( no time to set up proper Artillery plans ?) except for and mortars in the forces provided by you if you put them in ?
Germans are the defenders, there will be 4 Objectives on table. Table edge road junction, Crossroad junction. Church ( observation/command post) a Strong building (strong point)
Not sure whether to put the table 6 x 4 or 4 x 6 ? We could go 6 x 4 and do the game twice ? Swapping sides or the second game  ?
 Forces:
Allied.
US paras. 2 x platoons Vet. Mike or Colin ? Have these ?
6 tanks. 3 x Cromwell, 1 x Cromwell CS, 2 x Challengers.
Couple of scout cars ? Miles has these.
3 platoons of British Motorised infantry with H/T.
All British Average.
Miles has these. Will have H/T done by then.
 Germans.
3 x Panthers, 2 x jadg Pz Iv, 1 x Stug.
2/3 platoons of Fallschirmjäger (Pointed up as Volkstrum company, Raw) as these would be mainly ex Luftwaffe ground personnel.
2/3 platoons of Panzer Grenadiers with Hanomags. 251/1 and 10, and maybe 2-3 251/9 Stummel ?
The Panzer Grenadiers would be in reserve coming on not before turn 3 or 4 at least ?
 I can provide most of the tanks.
Infantry and Hanomags ? Colin ? Simon ? (Simon is painting up SS infantry as we speak) and Michael? 
I am setting a 600-700 points limit because of the amount of tanks included.
I will try and limit the long range straight shots down, by placing builds on some intervening squares where possible.

Miles
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 12, 2019, 05:01:56 PM
For that last-minute reading, there are several Arnhem ebooks currently available for 99p at Pen & Sword: http://theminiaturespage.com/news/?id=348170277
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Leslie BT on September 12, 2019, 08:22:42 PM
That will give you ten days to get the history straight before you play the games Simon!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Leslie BT on September 13, 2019, 07:19:57 PM
I hope you have you 'chutes packed!!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Leslie BT on September 15, 2019, 04:47:33 PM
No reports yet, the radios are still not working and the groups have been cut off incommunicado.

The Guards are still make their tea.
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 15, 2019, 05:02:03 PM
Well, they're not dropping until next weekend, so there's a little time yet  :)
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 15, 2019, 06:05:08 PM
Found the biscuit tin though.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 15, 2019, 06:06:29 PM
There will be a recce flight over the bridge area on Wednesday.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 18, 2019, 08:46:33 PM
Gentlemen, A recce flight has taken place over Arnhem Bridge I am confident that we are faced by old men and boys. Any armour can be considered as useless and being used for spare parts. The party is on for Saturday, God Save The King.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 18, 2019, 09:08:06 PM
Wow - that's looking mighty impressive, Dave - fantastic work there!

Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh on Saturday.
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: martin goddard on September 18, 2019, 10:16:18 PM
That is mighty!! :)
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Stewart 46A on September 18, 2019, 10:34:15 PM
Well done Dave, that looks fantastic BZ!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 18, 2019, 10:53:45 PM
Thanks guys, its a shame the figures are only blown over. But they should be done for Beachhead.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on September 19, 2019, 10:46:33 AM
What troops do you need ? Those that are coming might be able to provide the painted ones for now ? Put a list ? Your be surprised what we on this forum can supply for Saturday.
Miles
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 19, 2019, 11:07:09 AM
What an excellent idea, Miles!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 19, 2019, 01:20:57 PM
Its the Para's that are the main problem. Martin is fielding 3 platoons, but will need another 4, plus a platoon of mortars and HMG.

The problem is for the figures and the vehicles that my hand has broken 3 times in the last 6 weeks. I have concentrated on getting stuff ready but painting is dreadful, it really has been painting on painkillers.

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on September 20, 2019, 08:04:43 AM
So who can provide Dave and his game with his required British Paras ?

Anything Else required ?

Miles
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 20, 2019, 12:13:36 PM
Miles

Thanks for drumming up support. Martin is supplying some, and I will field 3 blown over platoons.

That should see us threw with a bit of luck?

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: martin goddard on September 20, 2019, 01:40:48 PM
All sorted.
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: martin goddard on September 20, 2019, 10:42:12 PM
Brit paras now in the box. 10.40pm.
Having now done them, maybe they should be the first force to fight in SSPBI?
Hope someone does some photos tomorrow.
Might even remember myself?
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Wardy64 on September 20, 2019, 11:03:16 PM
Thanks Martin

Just finish the last brush strokes myself, just heading to garage to pack it all up for the morning. Ben is moaning about his bed  :D

Dave
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Matías on September 21, 2019, 01:54:43 AM
Be sure to take some pictures for those of us who wont be attending!
Title: Re: Arnhem at Entoyment
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on September 22, 2019, 07:21:24 AM
Good day was had by all. Thanks to Martin for organising it. That’s to Sean for coming up with the original idea after our Ardennes game a couple of years ago.
The Battle-of Nuenen proved the Band of Brothers episode wasn’t wrong, it was a bloody nose for both sides and the Allies had to come and finish the job off a few weeks later, as in the history books.
A few things need testing when going from a 4x4 to 6x4, about forces sizes. I think next time I will have to look at the gun formula, as it seemed a slightly bit Gun heavy, but that’s for another time... the extra table area are was nice though as it give as bit more manoeuvre space.
Dave’s game looked very interesting, would love to play that at some point ?
The two big games (20mm)looked impressive as well.
Hope someone took some pictures ? As our games was a bit intense and got a bit rule heavy ! With CWB rules trying to sneak into the game ?
The talk by Toby was quite good and well received.
I am sure Martin will write a full report of the day.
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on September 22, 2019, 07:31:13 AM
I think if we are to do this, I think a series of small games and map moving would be the better idea. We have 5 years to get round this, and build up some forces. 2024 80th Anniversary, we might have it right by then ?
The next big thing before that though in Kursk 2023 ?
12 x 6 table like we did at Bovington years ago ?
Unless someone can come up with something before then ? LoL
Miles
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 11:19:18 AM
A fantastic day was had yesterday - a number of great-looking and fun games, followed by a talk by historian / lecturer / battlefield guide Toby McLeod [I learned that Toby does historical talks most Sundays at Entoyment across a wide range of historical topics: details are apparently on Facebook].

Many thanks to Martin for organising the whole day; to Miles, Mike and Colin for their warm welcome into their game; the staff at Entoyment for making us so welcome (especially Barry for the constant flow of tea) and all the others how joined in (with a special mention to Dave and Ben for putting on their fantastic bridge game).

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 11:29:13 AM
There were a couple of huge games by The Old Pikeys. These have been seen at shows over the years, I believe, but none the less impressive for that. Here are some photos of the first one: XXX Corps and Son bridge.

(https://i.imgur.com/q9Ken8Y.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XQrd2MS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/TCOsNE0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/NdkLToz.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/N5etKIm.jpg)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on September 22, 2019, 11:54:42 AM
Simon, your pictures are always excellent.  Your pictures have very good depth of field.

 believe i have some good photos(possibly). Taken with an ipad ( a hand held piece of hi tech). I will put a report everywhere, including the mill and here.
I had a really good bridge game. The bridge made the whole event focussed. Excellent and excellent.
Did nayone see the tram on the game, made it really work :D
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 11:59:16 AM
Thank you Martin. It's all down to the phone  :)

I saw the tram - I may even have a picture with it in - watch this space!
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 11:59:35 AM
Here are some shots of the Old Pikeys' Oosterbeck game:

(https://i.imgur.com/TtnUo0p.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iQ0uPmM.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/AUqSPPo.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RNrNwO1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dTkVo38.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/K4rHZxm.jpg)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 12:03:16 PM
The Poles at Driel: 20mm Rapid Fire:

(https://i.imgur.com/1khbvXJ.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/xlngJQh.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/XbNXulo.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9IZPMPp.jpg)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 12:04:22 PM
There were also 4 re-enactors, who brought along a bunch of replica kit:

(https://i.imgur.com/SE2MRUS.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FXEyw8K.jpg)
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 12:53:47 PM
Here are the shots I took of Dave's wonderful Arnhem Bridge table:

(https://i.imgur.com/W0NgJg1.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RqthvDx.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Xhq42wO.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9SDyYY8.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dTccMvF.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/lYCZU4S.jpg)

And finally, with the tram!

(https://i.imgur.com/giF5utR.jpg?1)

Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Wardy64 on September 22, 2019, 02:53:43 PM
Guys,  great day yesterday you were really 'good company'. People genuinely enjoyed themselves with some great models on show.

Martin thanks for organising and taking on the TRAM, but only one winner. Look forward to the next one.

A really fab day.

Dave and Ben
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on September 22, 2019, 05:09:44 PM
Miles organised Colin, Big Mike and yours truly for the "Band of Brothers" Nuenen game.

15mm PBI on a 6' x 4' table, summarised (courtesy of Miles) here:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ayep2rl.jpg)

The scenario involved some Raw German Luftwaffe personnel (represented by Colin's Fallschirmjager) and a lone Stug III G holding the town of Nuenen being assaulted by Mike's US paras and some British armour. At the end of Turn 3, Miles' British Recon company started to arrive, at the same time as the Germans received back-up from a motorised Panzergrenadier unit (my freshly-painted infantry), with 3 Panthers in tow (plus - in theory at least - 2 Jagdpanthers that we forgot all about until we were packing up....) - the big cats naturally by Miles, as was all the tabletop terrain.

In the map above, the Germans came on from the top and right-hand edges, and the Allies from the bottom and left edges. As well as - rather to the Germans' surprise, our own baseline. The Germans' task was to keep a route clear through the town to allow reinforcements to be brought up to defend the Allied landings.

A view from the Allied side, early in the game:

(https://i.imgur.com/VQbTJcK.jpg)

Thinly-spread Luftwaffe troops in the town square:

(https://i.imgur.com/qgPOtMf.jpg)

Another view of the town square as support platoons of Panzergrenadiers start to arrive:

(https://i.imgur.com/Ni8Z6Af.jpg)

The cheeky British drive straight from the Germans' baseline and debuss directly into the church (one of our 4 objectives):

(https://i.imgur.com/PPrAY98.jpg)

More troops get sucked into the town in a battle of attrition:

(https://i.imgur.com/qNMQzQA.jpg)

While yet more Allied armour tries to join in the fun:

(https://i.imgur.com/6jNl3Uu.jpg)

A pilot's view of the Germans trying desperately (too many 1's...) to deploy their heavy weapons (what a great idea, in the middle of the buildings):

(https://i.imgur.com/Twwqeku.jpg?1)

And the Allies close in:

(https://i.imgur.com/AKiojsl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/PTqVuWX.jpg)

But it didn't all go their way - as the Panzergrenadiers reinforced the town, they spotted the burning British wrecks left by the Stug early on in the engagement:

(https://i.imgur.com/4X4lZfn.jpg)

And the threat of an MMG platoon finally deploying chased the British transports down the road:

(https://i.imgur.com/Myv1TNv.jpg)

The final result was a minor points win for the Germans, which we considered an honourable and well-fought draw:

(https://i.imgur.com/Myv1TNv.jpg)
























Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Stewart 46A on September 22, 2019, 05:57:46 PM
Excellent looking games, thanks for the pictures, sorry I couldn’t attend.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: martin goddard on September 22, 2019, 06:22:19 PM
Here is a picture report of the day


https://www.peterpig.co.uk/Arnhem%202019.html
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Matías on September 22, 2019, 07:07:27 PM
Great pictures! Looks like it was a great day. Those tables look really impressive too.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Leslie BT on September 22, 2019, 07:59:42 PM
Well done to everyone. Some great looking tables, brilliant models. Everyone has been busy building and painting.
Title: Re: A Bridge Too Far
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on September 23, 2019, 10:55:49 AM
Thank you Simon for taking the pictures, as the Battle got heated, I just never had the time to take any.
The Germans got so pre occupied with the bridges, trying to keep them open;that the British Reccon troops managed to sneak round ( the other side of the town, undefended side ? Weakest spot ?)and take one of the Main Objectives. Which was quite true to what the British troops done, unfortunately as we know with “A Bridge Too Far” and up to a certain degree “Band of Brothers” the Hollywood effect glosses over the actual facts, moulds them into something we can watch.
 So it made an interesting battle. I think we will re run the scenario again in the next few months at Entoyment, with a few tweaks in the set up etc. But I do feel the US Paras being Veteran, doesn’t do them any favours ?
But overall, I think the result  reflected what we saw in B of B a draw, which in reality is a German Win;for that battle. So the Allies had to withdraw and come back in strength another day, and the Germans managed to Attack the Son bridge but not in the numbers or way they had intended to, as we know it was a disjointed attack, hopefully the 506 PIR Easy company and Reccon units of 15/19 Hussars affected this.
Miles