In many SCW photos there are men carrying long(9 feet?) sturdy poles. They look like flag staff sized.
Often a man is carrying two. the photo of the men crossing the Ebro have them too. Never more than a few but they seem to be smooth with no attachments.
Could they be flag poles, punting poles, Bangalore torpedoes, or what???? Usually infantry formations.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZ6sufkbTVAhVhBMAKHdAwDWMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F570901690239843473%2F&psig=AFQjCNFVEsXGhkGFn390peYZl2Oq4wSYRA&ust=1501611585503605
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjo3r2skrTVAhWHLMAKHWokDUYQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F570901690239843473%2F&psig=AFQjCNFVEsXGhkGFn390peYZl2Oq4wSYRA&ust=1501611585503605
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjz-uCDmbTVAhXlA8AKHdr2AE0QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gettyimages.com%2Fdetail%2Fnachrichtenfoto%2Ffrench-troops-presenting-arms-to-passing-francoist-nachrichtenfoto%2F106502039&psig=AFQjCNHFoOVpkcO5MUyVW8hOokgzgbrqiA&ust=1501613178279101&cad=rjt
Looking through many pictures I think they are poles for flags, unit colours and propaganda banners.
They look to big for flags and in the films the units have banners, flags at the head and within the units as well as these poles.
I have emailed Michael Portillo( he doesn't know)
Museum of Madrid, (awaiting picture), Spanish community of Britain(waiting a reply)
Episode 2 of Portillo
19minutes in. Throughout the programme they always appear to be with assaulting troops. Including moors. My best guess is still bangalores! At he 19minute pont there is also a group of 15 soldiers each of whom is carrying a pole. Seems to intimate that units might or might not cary them, if they did then usually about 3. The thick plotens
Just remembered one of the exercise we had to do in the forces, LONG POLES, ground sheets and rope, during the day in squads of 6 make a stretcher and carry a 15st VIP dummy around Dartmoor, in the evening turn stretcher in to makeshift tent with the dummy in the middle so it was warm and dry.
so maybe the spaniards had the same drill instructors?
Sorry chaps, I think you all have it wrong.
This is clearly an instance of a traditional weapon being carried by elite ex-navy members of a French International Brigade contingent, as shown in use here:
http://img.mensjournal.com/article-leads-horizontal/mj-618_348_frances-floating-tournament.jpg
and here:
http://travelfore.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/jousting-sete-france.jpg
Curses, now we have 3 options.
Or, on second thougths, maybe they're for pole-vaulting over defences? It was notable in Episode 2 of the Portillo series that those armed with poles (and in one sequence there was a whole bunch of them marching together) didn't seem to be carrying rifles too - presumably to be keeping their hands free for just such a manoeuvre.
So maybe an assault squad just waiting to vault into action?
Would the pole vault help overcome dead ground ?
I think it depends.
I imagine that these highly-trained troops had learned a number of different techniques.
There might be the "flip over the hill before they see us" one (i.e. advance unseen) as well as a "balance on the top of the pole to see over the obstacle" one, to negate the effect of dead ground (should work for both an intervening obstacle and gullies etc.?).
Having just watched a couple of episodes I think they are for colours and praganda banners.
In one shot their are some with a coloured flag rolled around the pole.
I think those banners were to disguise the poles' true purpose... ;)
Just got back from holiday so first chance to look at my reference books.
The caption to the photograph on Page 9 of Osprey's Campaign Book The Ebro 1938 (which shows 3 men with the poles) says "they are probably to help propel the boats across the river".
Can't find any other references.
For those of you who were following this thread probably missed the conclusion of the discussion on TMP.
Martin contacted Lluis of Minairons. He in turn put the word out in Spain.
'No idea Martin, but I'll ask in a Spanish wargaming forum. Perhaps someone there knows.'
'Hi again Martin, I've finally got a couple of likely alternatives:
1 – As you already suggested, these might be bangalore shafts.
2 – However, as the two pole carrying men in the picture are at the column rearguard, someone suggests they could be stretchers --as stretcher bearers used to march at the rear, especially in mountain areas like that.
Cheers,
Lluís'
'Hi Martin, other Spanish forum users confirm these were stretchers. They even could be used as improvised field hospital beds:'
So it looks like the conclusion is that the long poles are part of Stretchers.
Thanks Les - the one thing none of us had guessed!
I'm certain those soldiers carrying those big poles are stretcher bearers.
Are they not a thing that in Spain is called a Chuzo which is like essentially a pole about 150cm long. They are used by those who are employed has Sereno, which are sort of Watchmen. They were used for ages from times gone past when they were short pike type things but seem to have become long sticks over the years. Apparently they were used under Franco as a means of keeping people under control. (I don't know but presume by beating them?) There was an official post of a Sereno that was kept until 1977, apparently.
According to Google anyway.
At the risk of reopening this discussion:
- aren't the poles way too long and flexible for stretchers?
- and also too long for Duncan's 150 cm Chuzo?
- and if they were stretcher poles, they would presumably be carried in pairs?
I think further investigation is called for. ..
Agreed. Stretcher poles look 74% probable but I would like some more evidence please. Otherwise i will make a pack called "long poles" and they can fulfil a multiple role?
Looking at pictures of 'chuzos' online it seems they can be anything from a stick with a pike head, to a large paddle shaped head down to just a plain stick and varying in length from something you'd use as a skewer on a BBQ to pole about three meters long so a wide variety of options. Also if they are Chuzo then that would explain why the men holding them are mainly at the back as they would be there to keep order and to stop people slacking and bunking off as they are supposed to be keeping order.
They could be stretchers I guess but I would have thought there would be two per bloke?
Maybe they are multipurpose poles?
Duncan, your theory is interesting, but let it go....they are stretcher bearers. Incidentally, Serenos did not control the population by means of a chuzo. In fact, they were a very effective measure against possible street crime.
I don't think they are stretchers. They are not carried in pairs and there is no canvas around them. They are also very long and quite thick , so you can't easily grasped in your hand.
Here are some interesting links on the subject of stretcher bearers (camilleros)
https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/guerra-civil-sanidad-militar/
https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/guerra-civil-sanidad-militar-v/
https://ejercitorepublicano.wordpress.com/2012/11/11/sanidad-militar-2/
http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com.es/2012/05/la-infanteria-de-linea-3parte-de-el.html
This last link has a Bueno picture of a camillero in colonial summer uniform 1908-1914
There is a picture of camilleros in each of the links-all of them holding only one pole
I'd not seen those pictures before, Quebec.
All very interesting, and look pretty convincing as an argument to me - thank you!
Yes I think Quebec's evidence is pretty convincing.
I don't think the 'one man one pole' issue undermines the argument at all.
It takes 2 people after all to carry a stretcher. So when you have a casualty find a mate with another long pole and hey presto.
Are we then going to have a first Q@A pdf update to the new rules then to include something for stretcher bearers if arcade going with that idea? Perhaps the inclusion of a base could help with various kinds of saves ect!
Just put them on your local supports / civilian bases. But you will have to make them yourself.
Just watched the episode of battlefield mysteries on the Spanish civil war . Film footage of stretcher bearers during the Ebro offensive clearly shows these poles being used . The stretcher is carried on the shoulders of four men , this may be why the poles look wider than British army types ie they are not grasped in the hand