I have put together on paper a sample force of Cattlemen.
5 units
cattle men should be in about the middle as far as army size is concerned.
All bases 2 figures, leaders 1 figure.
Force leader(me)
3 mounted units. All long shooters. Average quality. 5 bases + 1 leader base. gives 11 figures per unit = 33 mounted figures.
2 foot units. Long shooters. raw quality. 8 bases + 1 leader. gives 17 figures per unit=34 figures.
Total = 13 packs plus deads etc= cost of £42
Here is the question.
Is that an "acceptable/desirable" amount of figures to paint/buy??
are you talking cost (£) or effort (painting/collecting)
£42 is less than a night out
painting ... with speed its an evenings work. But with so few you might with to lavish some attention.
Personally for these sort of skirmish type games its the terrain that is make or break, and is likely to cost far more that the figures. I 15mm MDF building is around the £10 mark, so how many are you looking for half a dozen?
Yes i was thinking of money and time costs. The basic need I have is to know what will entice people in or provide an affordable access point. Buildings. dependant on the army/force but usually about two 12x6 inch templates.
The rules are in a very early stage. i am putting it about(!) to see what initial feelings are and to allow folk to build an ary for the game. I am happy to send outa copy of the rough stuff if anyone sends me an e mail on peterpig@btinternet.com
Some things cannot change. It will be gridded, use D6, have a pre-game, 2-3 hour duration , units, other scales allowed for. It will not cover gunfights or 6 v 6 figure type games. There are a lot of those already?!
At the moment SCW is king for a couple more months!!!
so is it going to highly event /scenario driven?
no gunfights in the wild west ! what else is there?
shoot me a copy of the rules - I'm intrigued
Will get one to you Simon. By gunfights I was meaning the usual old west rules which are designed for each man to be individually considered. Usually up to 10 figs aside. Usually set in a town street. Wild west will group figures together and form battles. The same forces used in HYITJ can be used for Wild west i think. Some players will find it not for them (mostly because of grids and the lack of individual characters)I am sure but it will provide rules for a usually neglected part of the west. Additionally it will not call Indians and cavalry "factions" of the same greater part.
Quote from: martin goddard on July 19, 2017, 03:18:17 PM
Here is the question.
Is that an "acceptable/desirable" amount of figures to paint/buy??
Martin,
For me - absolutely. Enough to feel that it's more than a small skirmish, but not too onerous on painting time.
I recognise that we need "big" games [AK47, Square Bashing, ECW, SCW, ACW etc] to capture the flavour of certain conflicts but also like the smaller formats [Vietnam MOCB; not tried Pieces of Eight yet; now the new Western] with a much shorter-term prospect of getting one - and probably both - sides painted (or even multiple forces per side).
Quote from: Lurkio on July 19, 2017, 04:48:40 PM
painting ... with speed its an evenings work. But with so few you might with to lavish some attention.
Er - it might be for you, but not for some lesser mortals like me! With only 4 or 5 hours per week, this will still take me a month or more...
But it's an effort I'm happy to put in with a clear end in sight. My first Square Bashing army, on the other hand, turned into something of a labour of love, with that love turning to something nearer dislike towards the bitter end!
Martin's "affordable access point" is interesting. Can we perhaps consider "starter" size forces that could be grown to play a larger and/or different kind of game (e.g. Square Bashing has "normal" and "big" options, with different points values for each). For me, the key is to quickly get something on the table to play with, which should in turn generate enough enthusiasm to buy and paint more.
As an example, the small force sizes (generally fewer than 50 figures) needed to get started in DBA have been a major factor in its success, and not stopped people then beefing these forces up / buying one or indeed many opponents for them.
£42 is very cheap as an in to a new wargaming period, don't forget you will need to factor in the cost of the rules themselves and perhaps some period specific scenery. As the example army is mid range presumably a better quality army would cost even less and a poorer army slightly more. The small size low cost of armies is more likely to result in me buying a couple of armies one Indian one other.
Most western games these days are 25/28mm based around a small gun fight (usually with a lot of rather splendid scenery) so I am looking forward to a set built around slightly bigger engagements (cattle, Indian raids etc). What size table will it be Martin? I'll be ordering some troops, somewhere I have the old minifigs stage coach bought on a whim and never used.
Looking forward to some playtesting.
Chris
Initial thoughts on table size is 5x3 because it fits nicely on a table??
Gridded.
If 28mm use a bigger grid . 8"? then this gives 80" by 48". If the flank sqaures were reduced to 4" then a standard 6x4 table could be used.
10 Force types
Two of the forces never got figures made (23 years and waiting) Apaches and workers.
Force types, are you including both the mexican wars under US army?
Like wise the Texan wars with Mexico, and the confederates in the west?
The french intervention in Mexico?
What about The Red River Rebellion in Canada?
And other Canadian forces, Prince Albert Volunteers, North West Mounted Police etc?
I have not even thought about those yet. If the mechanisms fit after some initial play testing, then fine. Don't want the rules to be too bland/wide. Let s see if the shoe fits once the rules are underway.
I am customising my cattlemen force by doing a few head swaps. i have used ECW broad brimmed hats and the results look very nice??
Will put them on here once Dave has done the paint. Found the head swaps easy to do too.
That sounds like a good idea, and presumably those same heads could be used for other Western "forces" as generic headware?
Also, maybe both the Puritan hats [#111] and broad-brimmed Confederate hats [#32] could be useful?
Keeping a keen eye as usual on this. Under £50 is a good price point. I usually buy both sides so less than £100 for a game to take to the club is reasonable. Of course I'd need plenty of those lovely western buildings. It might even get me around to painting my train that I bought around 15 years ago!
I will get some rule sets out in few weeks. At the moment i am finishing off the SCW layout etc.....
How ae you thinking of doing the boxed army for the HYITJ?
Finishing the BAIT layout will allow the rules to go to the publishers after the pictures are taken.
There will be about 7 boxed sets for the new Western game methinks.
+1 for the train, crew and station buildings with staff?
I like the way you're thinking Les!
The boxed sets for Western (for want of a better title) will be at about the £20-40 price range. i assume there will be some markers specific to the game along with deads. Not sure if the box will include mounted and foot options. Depends on the price aim. Maybe a piece of scenery?
That sounds good Martin. However, I'm not sure about the scenery, though, as folk my already have their own - particularly if they're buying multiple boxed sets. Probably similar to not including dice in these boxes?
I would go for a "basic" price point and see whether (in play testing) there is much call for dismounting / mounting up. If this is rare, then perhaps leave out the additional figures? Presumably the aim is to make it easy (e.g. they don't even have to work out which packs to buy!) for newbies to buy a rules-compliant force and start painting and playing as soon and as cheaply as possible?
Again a box containing some of the bits you will need for the game, casualties, markers, buildings etc.
Boxed armies would be a good one I think?
I don't think it's that expensive, if it is for a single outlay you don't have to buy them all at once. If you spent just a £10.00 a week in five or six weeks you would have an army and as said people spend much more than that on drink, tags, going out for meals or just luxury's when shopping.
Are you going to give us a few more example armies? Please.
I think the resolution of the cavalry in the SCW might help to sort out what may happen here and how to mix mounted and foot.
Alot of the army lists could be used for a number of forces. Indians for example may see some of the PITS rules used for appear disappear!
Army, military forces would often be very similar. May be with some of the options as extras from the SCW.
Some of the irregular forces could use some of the Mountain tribe options from Vietnam.
The whole things needs a part of reality, a part of hollywood films, a part of Martins mayhem to create a thoughtful ruleset.
There may even be a river for the flat bottomed river boats and the paddle steamer for the gamblers.
The world at this stage is Martins little huître.
My sample cavalry force
Force Cdr- Maj Road
'A' troop - Vet, mounted ,long shooter
Ldr + 6 = 54
'B' troop - Average, mounted, long shooter
Ldr + 5 = 32
'C' troop - average, mounted, long shooter
Ldr + 5 = 32
'D' troop - average, mounted, long shooter
Ldr + 5 = 32
Force total 150
I built foot and mounted bases, cost 23 packs
1 character pack
2 foot cmd packs
5 foot packs
2 mounted cmd packs
11 mounted packs
2 dead packs
Stewart,
That's useful - thanks.
To be clear, I think:
a) you have provided foot troops in case your troopers wish to dismount
b) the totals you provide are points, rather than figure count
c) the total models you have are:
- 5 mounted leader figures, on their own bases = 5 mounted figures
- 21 bases of mounted cavalry = 42 mounted figures
- 5 dismounted leaders (each on their own base) = 5 foot figuress
- 21 bases dismounted troopers = 42 foot troopers
- a bunch of dead'uns
d) strictly, folk could play a game without the dismounted figures, as long as they didn't want to be able to get down from their gee-gees
Have I got all that right?
Thanks!
Simon
My force ldr is a single figure
Foot cmd are 3 figures (because I had the figures) officer, bugler and guidion holder
All other bases (not dead) are 2 figures
I have based all my troops on 2p pieces because I like the skirmish look and when the rules are further along and firmed up a bit may purchase 2p movement boards
Stewart: OK, got it - many thanks for these clarifications.
By the way, how do you fit your horses on 2p pieces? - I don't see how I can get my cattlemen / posse horses to fit on properly without an overhang, and was thinking of sticking with the standard 3 x 3 cm for mounted and 2p pieces for foot.
Perhaps the US Cavalry horses have smaller bases, or maybe I'm missing a trick here?
Hi Simon,
I haven't noticed any overhang and don't have cowboys to compare.
I think in the rules Martin is suggesting 30x30 but nothing is set in stone ref bases size and number of figures.
Martin's cavalry are 3 per 30x40 base!
Thanks Stewart: I will have another fiddle with 2p's; I do like that kind of layout (cf. MOCB).
Or failing that go 30x30!
Cheers,
Simon