I thought I would start a discussion about the hobby of historical miniature gaming. I am excluding talk gaming, card games and boardgames. They are all really great, but not my focus here. Just historical miniatures.
Whatever we chat about here will make only a small difference, but we can still do our bit. Not many of us have the time or inclination to go around groups and show the hobby off.
How do we get more players? More includes retaining those already playing.
Some thoughts on why the historical miniatures games are declining (if they are).
1. Fantasy is much easier to understand. The gamebook/film tells you all you need to know. No arguments or interpretations. Orcs are horrible.
2. Building an historical army takes more time to paint than a small group of figures.
3. Scenery takes effort and is often restricted to particular wars/campaigns.
Crusaders, Eastern front.
4. Historical armies cost more money.
5. Fewer compatible opponents for historicals. So many rules and sizes.
6. Abundance of game types encourages frequent game switching.
7. The players who do this hobby section are ageing.
Your thoughts
martin :)
I think points 4 and 7 are the big issues there Martin.
Compared to board games, or even computer games, this is a more expensive hobby.
Nick
I think a big element here is that history isn't a subject that is taught well in schools. They are taught to pass an exam rather than taught the subject. At best its a surface skim at its worst a fabrication to suit a specific fad or agenda. (yes, I have had experience of this with what was taught to my niece about Dunkirk - my grandfather was a BEF evacuee).
If you don't grab their attention and attract to them to history early you will rarely grab their interest in the hobby.
Derek
Reports from Salute were that there were plenty of younger folk there to balance out all of the grey heads of hair.
For those into Game Workshop games, they most certainly aren't cheaper. A single army can cost £400+. But you tend to only buy one, and then play in a shop where the terrain is provided against someone else who has spent £400 on their army.
Bolt Action is huge at my club with around 15 players of all ages. Their armies tend to be cheaper, but still around £200 if buying new. There is a flourishing second hand market where armies can be bought much cheaper.
Scenery is interesting. Years ago I don't think we fussed too much about what period a house was from. Now though I have specific scenery for most of my Peter Pig games. They are lovely but cost money, take time to paint and take valuable storage space. My choice, but a factor to consider.
How we grow the hobby beyond what we do already is a conundrum. Magazine articles are less influential I think these days. Open days and game days at Entoyment certainly give wider exposure to the hobby, but I don't have any figures for how many people are recruited into historical gaming as a result.
Re Cost:
I believe that one of the relevant issues here is that when it comes to Games Workshop stuff the purchasers aren't always the players. If mum or dad has been begged for a Goodjemaflip in plate armour with a vibrosword they will often buy it for young Timmy just to shut him up/show they understand etc. The fact that this is £3 for just one figure is almost irrelevant. The purchaser doesn't know anything about the cost of wargames figures. How many members of this group could give detail on the cost of make-up foundation creams?
The approch to such players will need to be different.
Derek of Cambridge.
Ooh, you cheeky sausage! My make-up costs an absolute fortune.
Maybe those that really want to miniature game will, but they are a small part of the overall "might" be persuaded play?
martin :)
I often have this conversation with my kids and peers, who are all late teens and early twenties. One common theme, is that they are not interested in History at all, and generally have negative view of how history is presented. There is also a limit of exposure - by Historical, they mean Warlord Games (nothing else really exists)
its definately not cost. I think the idea of 'young Timmy' is not really the main spending group. These are young adults with - what seems - large amounts of disposable income. Its not unusual for these folks to spend hundreds on hobby each month.
In the past 10 years , just local to me there are many GW clubs dwarfing the old Historical clubs. The amount of GW tournament is on a different scale. If you were so inclined you could go to a GW event with over 100 competitors every week. London GT and LVO have between 5-700 competitors.
I think the idea that GW gamers migrating to Historical as they get older is a bit naïve. I think if you ask the GW gamers they would expect historical gamers to move to GW hobby as its a better/safer space.
just my experience.
Our club was badly hit by covid, many members stopped coming.
Since then we have tried to recruit more and we are starting to recover. Most are returnees to the hobby, children are now grown up and they have more time and want to get back to gaming again. Several bring along their children in their early twenties, so there is still some interest at that level. We only have one under 18 who comes with his granddad!
We are about the only one in the area which meets every other sunday, so have time for big battles. Most of the others are evenings, so limited to small battles which are mainly games workshop type.
Some random pessimistic thoughts:
The problem with history is that there is just too much of it.
In historical gaming terms, this translates to a hobby which is too large and too diffuse for the number of people who practise it. I wouldn't like to speculate how many sets of rules I have tried over the years, but each set has had a small group of fanatical supporters and probably a similar group who despised it. Largely it's been a case of how well the result produced by the mechanics related to the consumer's vision of what running a historical battle should feel like.
GW have been very clever in creating a product which is simple enough at its core to draw people in, and has enough internal consistency to keep people coming back, while continuing to expand and evolve in order to encourage additional purchases. Kind of like a videogame franchise which can produce endless variations on basically the same concept and/or game engine. But it's interesting that even GW pulled back from its "specialist games" line suggesting that diversity may not be the best commercial approach.
Wargaming doesn't have the same luxury of concentrating on a limited product range - too many people have skin in the game (and there are too many divergent opinions on the balance between historical validity and playability).
I suspect historical wargaming will carry on much as it has done for the last few years - a few new people will drift into it more or less by accident, but it will remain a minority interest.
I suspect this has been the case with historical gaming since the 1960's. Its difficult to put a finger on why any one person is drawn to it over and other hobby. I think it's a definite case of nature over nurture.
As Simon says, GW is just a different beast altogether. They are a multi billion pound industry that shows no signs of slowing down. As large as the tournaments are each week, there are likely to be many times more people playing in garages, lofts and basements the world over who aren't visible.
Regarding history and the young, my daughter has just chosen history as one of her GCSE options. She was reluctant because she has been told its one of the toughest in respect of workload. But she seems to have an aptitude for it, and more importantly enjoys it. I still can't get her to sit and watch Glory with me though 😂
I think the ageing and/or decline in historical gaming is due to the backgrounds of potential players.
There is a generation for whom "gaming" means X-box / PlayStation or PC. They may have flirted with GW but were less keen on the modelling and painting.
Then there are the GW generation - entered the hobby via that route, often pre- electronic games. Experience of painting etc, but also used to GW style games. May have some historical interests.
The smallest category are those introduced to historical wargames by family or other adults.
All can drift away due to work, young family, education etc.
We saw many return to the hobby during lockdown - or at least the painting / modelling side.
Many return when work settles or family grow up.
Little wonder we see many of the GW generation return via Warlord games / rules. Even sticking together plastic figures is familiar.
I do think it will be harder to bring in the computer generation gamers - some will, but building an army is a commitment that will deter many.
Neil
My first foray into club games and wargaming itself, was finding an advert for a local group that said come along, new members welcome. I turned up a beautiful ancients game was being played by six people, I was ignored all evening. I was 13 and it was in 1973..
So, despite that inauspicious start, what brought you back to the hobby, Ben?
Simon
QuoteI turned up a beautiful ancients game was being played by six people, I was ignored all evening. I was 13 and it was in 1973
Same here, except it was the late 1970s and I was already interested... or rather, I had already made my first tentative steps into the hobby (using Donald Featherstone's World War 2 rules and Airfix figures, both derided by older hands as "lacking sophistication").
Demonstration games at shows have often left me feeling slightly uncomfortable; often feels as if the players have turned up for their own benefit, which is fine but it does mean that waverers can be put off. To attract new people (assuming you can get them through the door in the first place) it may be that something slightly less elaborate is required. For me, the ideal show game would be something that includes:
- Just enough scenery and models to look good.
- A rules summary that fits on a single sheet of paper.
- A game that can be played to a conclusion within half an hour.
- Friendly people on hand to explain the game and, if necessary, be a kindly opponent.
- Maybe a small prize for the winner? A figure or something.
- Supported by a discounted starter pack containing rules, figures and maybe other bits to re-create (even if in a simplified fashion) what has just been played on the table.
That doesn't address the issue of potential recruits who won't, or can't, attend shows. I suspect technology may hold part of the key, but leveraging it may be more difficult. If the issue is the complexity of the rules, it should be possible to create an app to manage some aspects of the game. Whether the result strays too far from miniatures gaming is anyone's guess.
"Demonstration games at shows have often left me feeling slightly uncomfortable; often feels as if the players have turned up for their own benefit, which is fine but it does mean that waverers can be put off."
I got involved in an online "discussion" many years ago about "demonstration" games. The topic was started by US gamers who could not get their head around the concept. In the US you put on a game for people to play. They didn't grasp what they called "look but don't touch" games.
It went around the houses. It was generally agreed that a lot of the games used beautifully painted figures on specially made terrain - in some cases works of art.
What we could not establish was what they were "demonstrating".
I suggested that it was the skill of the person putting the game on and perhaps incautiously suggested it was in effect an ego trip - to feel good because people said nice things about your game....
I got a lot of flak. One chap told me he didn't spend thousands of pounds and considerable time putting on games at shows "just for his ego".
So I asked the simple question "why did he do it then?"
All these many years later, I'm still waiting for an answer.......☺
Neil
Judging by the photos, you had to wear a jacket and tie if you wanted to put on a demonstration game in the old days. Could that be the missing ingredient? :)
I know for me Airfix was the way forward in the 1970s and then Matchbox in 80s. Getting into WW2 then I spread into other historical periods from there. Started goi g to model as well as wargame show and the rest is History. But these routes don't seem to be there anymore?
Talking of History is it because they stopped teaching about it in order ?Eygpt-Greeks-Romans-Vikings ? Etc Etc. But now seemingly do events and periods in History instead?Dunkirk, Hastings Somme WOR ? I can understand it become a bit bitty and drawn out as well as confusing bit there ? So no interest in what happened inbetween ?
Miles
comes back to what I said earlier. Teaching is towards doing an exam and not about learning about the period and the issues of the day.
Derek
I was at school during the 60s and 70s.
There were history lessons but they did not influence my interest in miniature gaming.
Woodrow Wilson's 14 points?
History is probably better taught at school now than ever before. The resources are much better. Schools also have more history based field trips etc. too. I never had an historical field trip when I was at school ( a rough school).
I do accept there is too much history to learn/teach all of it, even by the keenest.
I am leaning more towards Miles' point.
I saw Airfix figures and thought "that looks interesting". There was no competition from electronic based entertainments. Maybe Airfix was a main influence?
Then I got Charles Grant's BATTLE book (plus Military Modelling articles) and became very keen indeed.
Good discussion folks.
I will find a tweed jacket and tie to raise the quality of our public image.
martin :)
I felt the same until my 3rd year in secondary school when I came under a different history teacher. She brought it alive for me. A good teacher can inspire that enthusiasm. I still love history now due to here nuturing in the subject. Im reasonably sure that was where my interest in gaming came from. Now if only I could remember her name :)
Derek
More personal experience...
I've moved over to predominantly playing GW games now. I think accessibility is a major factor. I can go to several clubs (many within walking distance) and get a game with a large range of opponents. The age range is late teens to sixties. The clubs/stores typically have a retail component, I can just pick up off the shelf and pay. If I need to learn something about these games there are hundreds of 'professional' quality content creators online. Historical games are not going to compete with this. I think its more likely that historical gamers ar more likely to move that way rather than the other way round.
There is probably an element - IMHO - where there is an arrogance that historical games are of a higher level of value. Again in my experience, these new larger communities are way more friendly (maybe because they're trying to earn a quid). In my recent experience old gamers can be more insular, opinionated, unwilling to try anything new, and generally unwelcoming to new folk. Obviously, there will be exceptions to the rules. I'm sure we seen grumpy old men at clubs/shows.
My thought would be to start playing these 'large' brand games, meet the people and then try to introduce them to new historical games. BUt the question would be what would make this better than what they currently do?
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on May 09, 2025, 12:17:48 PMSo, despite that inauspicious start, what brought you back to the hobby, Ben?
Simon
I had a school pal, that I "persuaded" to start playing after getting Charles Grants "The Wargame" out of the local library. Airfix ACW of course. Then I found a stamp and coin shop in Wakefield that sold Hinchliffe... 50 years later...
My experience of history at school was wonderful.
As a 10 year old I learned the dates of the kings and queens of England and have retained that knowledge to this day (utterly useless except in pub quizzes).
As a 14 year old I studied "the Expansion of Europe" from about 1450 to 1600. Vasco de Gama, Amerigo Vesputchi, John and Sebastian Cabot, Magellan, Francis Drake, Walter Raleigh etc. Brilliant. I loved it. This was World history.
I also studied, as English history, "the Three Georges" as taught by an ex WW2 pow. Can you imagine the Jacobite Rebellion 1745, The Seven Years' War, The American War of Independence, the French Indian Wars and the Napoleonic Wars.
I couldn't get enough of it.
But my love of wargaming came from a fellow student who had written his own WW2 war-game rules.
John
See like Derek I had a great teacher in the 3rd year, the previous 2 he was more seemingly interested in having a fag in his backroom rather than properly teaching us ?
But then the last 2 years they went on to teach us about History of Churches which I enjoyed as Martin rightly said field trips, to some of the local Churches. Must admit Dorset does have some nice and good examples of Churches across the ages. Then History of Medicine which I didnt find as good and interesting being more about facts rather than something to get your teeth into ?
So I went more into Art. But that's another story.
If my History lessons had been more what John experienced I actually might have gone on and taken History further in my Academic years ? Also would know more about some of the CK and Viking periods we now cover in gaming ?
But looking at this it does seem to be a generation thing ?
Those of us the essentially grew up in the Airfix period do hold different values to those in the Games Workshop period ? They in turn have different opinions to us "oldies" Of course now the Video games period with there experiences. As we can't ignore this, now the graphics are so good ? They bring alive what we as "old gamers" could only imagine back in the old days ?
Call of Duty, world of Tanks (air and sea) even Assassin Creed with its graphics going bad to old worlds ? Also Halo with its Sci-fi looks. All great games and fantastic graphics.
So how do we bring this all together is the question ? Without having our pre judgments and mis conceptions getting in the way ?
Miles
Went to school in the 60's and 70's.
My biology teacher was a wargamer, we had a club at school, have been playing and running a club ever since!
Even had a wargamer in my local primary school, where my children were, again generated a lot of interest especially my son . But unfortunately more games workshop.
Agree with the demo game comments, we do demo games at local shows but try to use simple games and average models so as not to overaw the new comers. We often spend most of the shows just chatting to people about wargaming, and giving them a feel about the games we play.
We offer a free first visit to the club, and always rope them in to actually play as most games are multi player. We also try and impress on them that they can come and play without having to rush and buy stuff as many of our veteran players can easily host games from their own collections.
Seems to work , slowly!
Maybe there can be a label "Airfix introduced (AI)" to encompass the bulk of historical miniature gamers?
Here's to AI.
martin :)
It'll never catch on Martin!
My history teacher in the mid 80's was a chap called Ian Wilson. He ruled the class with an iron rod and was a fierce individual. But my god, he had those of us with an interest eating out of the palm of his hand.
He would stride up and down the classroom quoting Wilson's (Woodrow) 14 points. We learned about triples entente, entente cordials, blank cheques, splendid isolation, fascism, Bismarcks Ideology, Hitlers rise and the suffragettes. I was in awe.
Europe between 1870 and 1939 became my speciality. I remember in my O level exam we had to write 10 essays, but the potential questions were on around 20 different subjects so we had to have all 20 memorised. But thanks to Mr Wilson (Ian) I got through it. Quite why I didn't go on to study history further, I can't begin to guess.
The only thing I remember from history lessons at school is being told off for reading Edgar Rice Burroughs under the desk. I think we were doing Henry VIII at the time, so not much difference from the exploits of John Carter.
Quote from: JohnWyatt on May 10, 2025, 12:39:05 PMThe only thing I remember from history lessons at school is being told off for reading Edgar Rice Burroughs under the desk. I think we were doing Henry VIII at the time, so not much difference from the exploits of John Carter.
Better to haave John Carter as a childhood influnence than Henry VIII