SB is 13 years old.
Since then there have been many RFCM rule sets.
Here some matters that I think will make it into any newer edition.
Just thoughts.
1. Both players contribute to the countdown. With re-rolls. To mirror the 21 point countdown a 40 point countdown would be needed. 40 Zebras?
2. Re-roll of assaults. Target first.
3. Units disintegrate at 1/2 base strength.
4. Re-roll all victory points.
5. Simplify the pre game as detailed a year or so ago.
Your suggestions or thoughts.
A new version would require more deep thinking than just the above but I thnk they would "better" the game.
martin :)
Not zebras but perhaps tree stumps?
Half basing means lots of re basing.
John
Tree stumps would work. Whatever the item, it would need to be grouped in order for players to clearly see the track of the game clock.
Agricultural workers. Slipping away as a battle progresses.
Bicycles. Getting stolen.
Geese. Fly away.
??
martin :)
John we already have Half bases ?
What Martin meant is the unit going down to the last Half base or 50_ 75 men before it disappeared for good ? As an effective fighting force it would have disappeared at 100-150?
Miles
Perhaps do the count down in reverse with more and more French 'entertainment workers' , food vendors, journalists etc arriving
I think units should melt away if reduced below one base.
Otherwise I like them as they are.
I agree Graham. Those odd g
Half bases are too easy to miss or get mixed in wit the general game detritus.
martin :)
These were from Simin C a couple of years ago.
"MGs holding objectives
P26 - last paragraph
1st line says yes, 2nd line says no
Scenery Layout
Perhaps some more restrictions on placing templates. We see some players deploy all terrain on one side of the table , risking 'null' games
Assigning Hits in Assault.
Whether hits should be allowed in units not assaulting - currently yes - but perhaps dubious"
Some more from Simon C
I agree in that fundamentally its sound. The two areas I'd change are -
Pre-Battle.
I'd like pre battle , but this doesn't do it for me. its too detached from the game, and really the decision on allocating dice is pretty much a waste. I always stick to the standard set - doesn't seem to make any different. If you want a design a defence minded army then you should have a way of influencing the attack/defense
Scoring
Its just too painful sometime to sift through all the casualties. It makes the table untidy. I'd like an 'in game' scoring mechanisms where the toys are put i the box after each turn
Line of sight & artillery needs some tightening
Assaults definitely needs some tightening
Support Squares
The list on the FAQ link is good start.
My view is would be to print the rules, but make the army lists online. I think the lists are a big thing that get people excited and you could add more chrome. Something to re-invigorate existing figure ranges to monetise the venture.
And then there is the Frequently Asked Questions to consider.
FAQ v1.7 - 01/07/2024
All the italicised items are taken from correspondence with Martin
ASSAULTS
Assaulting in the flank.
When a square is assaulted from the flank only, if the target loses and needs to retreat or choices to retire which direction do they go?
A – towards their own base line. Right angles from the assault
B – directly away from the assault. i.e. a sideways move
Page 52 (assaulter wins the fight)
"target units all moved back towards the baseline by 1 square"
So, be careful when you get behind the enemy!
ATTACKING THE REAR
If a square fair a moral test and has to retire does it always go towards its baseline. We had a weird looking on where some cavalry assaulted the rear of the square ... lost .. got some casualty markers. Subsequently failed the morale but its movement was blocked by the square it was tying to assault previously.
as above
WINNING THE FIGHT
If 1 unit has a marker a square , with other units that do not. If you win another fight can you award it to another unit? so 2 units can have a marker?
Yes , page 53... winning the fight
"... result in several units having winning the fight markers"
Winning the fight
If you win the fight do you remove all casualty markers for the square or only those inflicted as part of the assault?
Yes, page 52 ...
"The winner of the fight removed all their own casualty markers"
Losing 'Winning the fight'
Its says that these are only lost when you lose the fight. Am I right in thinking this does not include retire/fall backs from morale checks as a result of shooting?
"You only need to lose the "winning the fight" markers if you actually lose a fight or withdraw from an enemy assaulting you"
Calculating assault winner
When determining 'winning the fight' is it just casualties inflicted as part of the assault? or do casualties in the square also count (for a prior barrage in the same turn say)
"Only casualties gotten in thefight will count toward teh win/lose calculation. The other casualties will make moral much worse when it does come about. However a winning square can discard all of its casualty markers because they are elated at winning."
Calculating assault winner
When determining 'winning the fight' is it just casualties inflicted as part of the assault? or do casualties in the square also count (for a prior barrage in the same turn say)
"Only casualties gotten in thefight will count toward teh win/lose calculation. The other casualties will make moral much worse when it does come about. However a winning square can discard all of its casualty markers because they are elated at winning."
Measuring LOS
Do you measure from square centre to centre to determine LOS through trees etc? or can it be any part of the square that blocks LOS?
Square centre to square centre. Of course it might TOUCH the corner of a wood square etc but that is OK. Thus a diagonal of squares can ignore buildings etc that touch that diagonal
BEF shooting dice
+1 fight D6 for each infantry unit (max 2) in an assaulted /target square.
You get +1 for each BEF infantry battalion(unit) in a square that is assaulting. You also get +1 D6 for each battalion in a square that is the target of an assault. It does not apply to shooting, but only to units involved in assaulting, or being the target of an assault.
MGs and Guns in Support
MG and Gun bases do not count as bases to give rear support, to either assaulter or defender
Retiring from assault
QRS and p46 says
-1 hit if in woods,buildings,MG or A/c Present
-1 hit if professional unit or mounted cavalry present
P51 says
-1 hit if in woods,buildings,cavalry or A/c Present
-1 hit if professional unit or MG present
Let us go with the P46.
Majority wins.
I hope that does not upset any special plans generals might have?
Thanks for spotting it Simon.
-1 hit if in woods,buildings,MG or A/c Present
-1 hit if professional unit or mounted cavalry present
I shall write in my rules. Maybe everyone should do that.
Advance after retiring from assault
When a square chooses to retire rather than face the assault. Does the assault counts as winning the assault? The reason for confusion is that on the QRS there is a separate section on assault outcomes. The third section being 'target chooses to retire'. In this section it defines the outcomes. So, 3 hits and assaulted gets 'winning the fight'. What it doesn't mention is whether the assaulter does the other things that occur when you win an assault.
Do you removing the 'winners' casualties? (are they still elated?)
Does the assualter have to move at least one unit into the assaulted square?
Good note Simon.
I say "yes it does count as wining a normal assault".
You get a winning the fight marker,move at least 1 unit into and remove winner casualties.
martin :)
Allocating hits
To clarify allocating hits. From shooting the target allocates the 1st hit, from assault the target allocated the first 2 hits. This is as per the QRS , and not the rules. Martins rationale -
Quote
The idea was to let the owner apply the first hits n order to prevent the shooter cherry picking his favourite target. Because shooting generates fewer hits, one hit application of the owner's choice. In assaults there will be more hits, thus the owner chooses the first two. The choices should end up with the owner choosing the hits when the action is not that decisive. only when actions create a lot of death does the shooter/opponent get a big say.
Overall the rules should stop teh occasional shot taking out that valuable MG etc,
Taking excess casualties
When a damaged gun is allocated 2 hits, and then fails both. Does it generate 1 or 2 casualties? The rules say all unsaved hits generate a casualty marker, subsequently it says than when a damaged gun takes a 2nd casualty it is totally destroyed
"You CAN put two hits on a unit or gun with only 1 casualty potential left. A useful ruse.So a damaged gun taking extra hits might fail both but still only place 1 casually marker as that was all that was remaining on that gun."
Stormtroopers
Stormtrooper deployment . The rules state "held off until depletion are finished "
"Another one that needs a ruling. My suggestion is that - just before you start assets for turn 1".
The +5 to the assault of Stormtroopers in the first phase . Is that by unit or by square ?
"I thought it would be per square like shock assault. I assume you are having two stormtrooper units on the same squares. Else +10 is pretty mind blowing. "
There is a difference in the rules between the printed book, and the later PDF. The PDF has the additional bullet point -
• Stormtroopers are all positioned in the same square and must stay together for this part of the pre-game. They cannot go in different directions to accomplish different tasks.
Scoring
Damaged Artillery and MGs
P62 point 5 makes it clear that damaged MGs and Artillery do count for scoring
Damaged or destroyed light AC or tanks attract 2 victory points.
Infantry and Cavalry half bases on table
P62 point 8,9,10 make it clear that even 1/2 a base on table means the units is not lost
These victory points are a bonus for finally destroying a unit. A destroyed unit is one which has not even a half base left on the table. A battered unit might be of further use in a campaign, whereas a destroyed unit ceases to exist. A unit that still exists will be able to cater for its wounded whilst a destroyed unit will have surrendered. been dispersed or have been massacred. This category does not include defender's units lost from the game because of depletions. They were not there anyway!
Holding Objectives
The only thing that cannot hold an object is a Higher Command base.
P62. point 14
The objectives are specific points that are assumed to be important to the tactical battlefield, adjoining countryside and future battles near the present battlefield. These points can be claimed if any unit is on that square, but not by a higher command base.
More...
Wonderful, Sean.
I think we knew they'd come in handy one day!
Simon
I don't know if there are physical copies of the rules still in print. If not, maybe all of the above, once tested, could be added into the rules which could follow the PBI model of being available as a PDF and those that wish to have printed copies could make use of a print on demand service.
I know there are issues of piracy, but I wonder if this mitigated as there are no printing costs for the company, so any sales are profit (beyond the time element of actually writing the document)?
The FAQ are on the "want to know more" page of the website rules section.
When we get back to re doing square bashing I think it will be a big job. Not just adding the above clarifications.
Your points are all good Sean. We are thinking in similar veins.
This is a good ingoing discussion. Bear in mind that the update of PITS is before the update SB.
The release dates have slipped for TCR and AK but they should both be out before the WWW.
PITS will get a few bigger changes.
1. Gridding. That will actually make the rules simpler. Some consideration of stacking of units.
2. Modify fighting and shooting. Make it easier with less specifism.
Once work is started, I am sure other items will just leap out as being right for change.
PITS is a most enjoyable game with enjoyable mechanisms which will remain at the core of the game. ie Missions, scenery pop ups, card happenstance and points system.
I think that about 5 of us already have full forces? That helps a lot.
martin :)
martin
At least, with SB, the army lists look good to go. I don't think they need re-writing.
John
Quote1. Both players contribute to the countdown. With re-rolls. To mirror the 21 point countdown a 40 point countdown would be needed. 40 Zebras?
currently, the countdown is arbitrary. Of all things I'm not sure this needs changing. Adding some 'opposed' roll element typically will cancel out. Generally one player will want to end quicker, and the other slower. It unlikley that both will want the same (in which case one of them has it wrong ;) )
Quote2. Re-roll of assaults. Target first.
IMHO re-rolls are
not a good mechanic. Aside from the inevitable slow down of the game - what are the benefits to this? Mitigating a bad dice throw?
Typically assaults are in region of 9-12 dice (for the attacker) This should give a reasonable distribution of dice results. Assaults with fewer dice do get more 'swingy'. Let's not forget we have saves post the assault.
We've all had a bad throw of dice, but is that justification to re-roll? just to try and get a more satisfactory result?
Quote3. Units disintegrate at 1/2 base strength.
Yup - het lets get rid of 1/2 bases being used to hold objectives, or kept in reserve never to be brought on the avoid full unit loss.
Quote4. Re-roll all victory points.
again - if you are trying to get a less swing result increase the arbitrary value of the calculation - so for instance, rather than 2d6 + row num. Make it 1d6 + double row number (something like that)
Quote. Simplify the pre game as detailed a year or so ago.
I can't quite remember what the solution was a year ago. I don't it necessarily needs to be simpler. IMHO it does need a better way for player ability to influence an attack or defence stance.
QuoteAt least, with SB, the army lists look good to go. I don't think they need re-writing.
I feel that improvement can be made here also. Moving to a online/pdf version would help matters. There are quite a few errors that need correcting, plus there are some enhancements (in the middle eastern front lists)
I think you are probably correct Simon.
Both books will be available in pdf and print. Both will be for sale.
martin :)
Simon,
Regarding the countdown, the only difference in more modern RFCM rules is that both attacker and defender roll at the end of their respective turns. It's not an opposed roll. Obvioulsey with an extra countdown roll per pair of turns, the game length needs to be increased.