I have played PBI over many years and this is the 4th iteration of the rules I have used. My impression of the rules are that they have many simplifications which are very useful, but I am also left a little confused by a few things which I would like to clarify.
A) you used to be unable to use both Opportunity fire and Return fire, but I can't see that in the rules now, so can you now use both vs same square?
B) Return fire is not mentioned for Vehicles with MG's, so am I right in thinking that they can no longer add their fire power to infantry in their square when they respond?
C) how do you handle vehicles with 20mm autocannon and coax, when engaging foot targets? Are they just able to use coax and ignore 20mm like o the tanks,?
This is significant for Germans as it makes them much less effective.
D) are woods and buildings counted as one type and restricted to 3 max, or Can you choose 3 of each?
E) Can I assume the "or" in bullet point 2 p61 is a typo? It implies you can only use 1 or all remaining asset dice in a turn, but the rest of the text suggests you can use any number up to those remaining?
F) I also assume the tabbed Outcrops in the very terrain picture is an error, as elsewhere it says use Outcrops as Wood substitutes in Deserts, and the rules specifically stated only buildings are tabbed!
G) Satchel Charges - is the limit 1 per assault, or one per base in the assault of the former this is a real cramp on Japanese AT ability! . (I prefer the latter, as they are limited in number, but if you want to represent Jap AT tactics then it seems justified !)
I) Jap tank Hunter asset, seems redundant under the rules as they tended to have only Satchcharges/mines/At Rifles. I would be tempted to let them use approach rules then give the base a free assault as per rules, they would need to negotiate opportunity fire, here they come fire and the assault but sequence, possible vs solitary tank, less so if tank has foot escort as per actual learnt tactics!)
Thanks
Graham
Hello Graham
I really hope you enjoy the 2025 more than any other PBI set.
A) you used to be unable to use both Opportunity fire and Return fire, but I can't see that in the rules now, so can you now use both vs same square?
YES BOTH CAN BE USED, IF JUSTIFIED BY CIRCUMSTANCE.
B) Return fire is not mentioned for Vehicles with MG's, so am I right in thinking that they can no longer add their fire power to infantry in their square when they respond?
VEHICLE MGS CAN USE OPP AND RETURN SHOOTING, AS VEHICLE MGS ARE PART OF SMALL SHOOTING.
C) how do you handle vehicles with 20mm autocannon and coax, when engaging foot targets? Are they just able to use coax and ignore 20mm like o the tanks,?
This is significant for Germans as it makes them much less effective.
THE 20MM CAN BE PAID AND USED AS AN MG ARMAMENT (MMG). OR IT CAN BE PAID FOR AS A GUN 5 WITH A VEHICLE MG. PLAYERS CAN CHOOSE EITHER BUT NOT HAVE BOTH.PLAYERS CAN MAKE IT GUN 10 IF THEY PAY FOR IT. NO FREEBIES.
D) are woods and buildings counted as one type and restricted to 3 max, or Can you choose 3 of each?
WOODS AND BUILDINGS ARE DISTINCT TYPES. A PLAYER COULD CHOOSE 3 WOODS AND 3 BUILDINGS BUT IT WILL MAKE THE TABLE TOUGH ON MANOEUVRE. A GREAT FEATURE OF PBI.
E) Can I assume the "or" in bullet point 2 p61 is a typo? It implies you can only use 1 or all remaining asset dice in a turn, but the rest of the text suggests you can use any number up to those remaining?
YOU CAN USE ANY NUMBER.
F) I also assume the tabbed Outcrops in the very terrain picture is an error, as elsewhere it says use Outcrops as Wood substitutes in Deserts, and the rules specifically stated only buildings are tabbed!
PLAYERS CAN USE ANY SCENERY MODELS THEY WISH.
IF THEY REPRESENT WOODS WITH OUTCROP MODELS THEN NO TABBING. IF THEY REPRESENT BUILDINGS WITH OUTCROP MODELS THEN THEY MUST BE TABBED.
G) Satchel Charges - is the limit 1 per assault, or one per base in the assault of the former this is a real cramp on Japanese AT ability! . (I prefer the latter, as they are limited in number, but if you want to represent Jap AT tactics then it seems justified !)
SATCHEL CHARGES 1 PER BASE. JAPANESE AT ABILITY WAS ALWAYS APPALLINGLY BAD.
I) Jap tank Hunter asset, seems redundant under the rules as they tended to have only Satchcharges/mines/At Rifles. I would be tempted to let them use approach rules then give the base a free assault as per rules, they would need to negotiate opportunity fire, here they come fire and the assault but sequence, possible vs solitary tank, less so if tank has foot escort as per actual learnt tactics!)
FOR SIMPLICITY ALL TANKS HUNTERS ARE TREATED THE SAME. JAPANESE TANK HUNTERS WOULD COUNT AS POORER TYPE. It would be too time consuming to have a separate tank hunter rule section for each nation?
Hope that is all good.
martin :)
Thanks for that.
I think I will tend to use the 20mm as a gun 5 but give it a nominal HE of 1. It can then fight like any other tank, using its coax for local defence, but the option of targeted longer range anti infantry if it likes.
I particularly like the new morale rules, and the simplification of command.
The no small shooting in or out of gullies is an interesting change, need to do some modelling!
Cheers
Sounds like a good solution Graham.
martin :)
Presumably with Gullies, the no small fire ban precludes any opportunity fire?
Does it preclude any small fire between each of the 2 fully squares?
A good way to infiltrate!
Gullies.
Without checking, I think:-
No shooting in or out or within.
But HE can be used in and out.
I qualify the above by saying that the restriction is due to the inability of troops to effectively shoot in or out. There would be some shooting , but not effective shooting.
martin :)
But to use HE the troops in the gully would have to be visible to troops in your company, wouldn't they?
Also I didn't think you could fire from one gully square to the other one in the template.
John
Quote from: John Watson on February 15, 2025, 11:03:14 AMBut to use HE the troops in the gully would have to be visible to troops in your company, wouldn't they?
Also I didn't think you could fire from one gully square to the other one in the template.
John
John,
I think you'd need to be able to see troops in an adjacent square, and so have the second HE shot falling into (just the) one square of the gully. Which would of course be off-table HE from an Asset rather than on-table Big Gun or mortar HE.
HE could also be deviated into the gully, but only a 1 in 6 chance of that per shot.
I think you and Martin are agreeing ("within") that there is no shooting from one gully square to another.
Simon
So the HE asset CAN target a gully?
On table HE/Mortar only if it deviates?
HE can directly target a gully.
The enemy know that there are troops there.
They cannot bring effective direct shooting to bear.
martin :)
No problem John. Let me address those two points.
1. No direct shooting in or out or within.
2.The troops can certainly see each other or/and are aware of their presence. They cannot effectively shoot at each other . As this shooting is not effective, it has been disallowed. Men would be popping up and down and shooting an odd shot. Gullies do not have a continuous trench edge. Instead, the gully has multiple dips, channels and blobs. This is a general rule as PBI is not a skirmish game in which individuals might manoeuvre and shoot.
If players wish gullies to be the same as others scenery then don't use them, but put partials in those squares. Gullies represent another challenge for the poor commander or potential benefit for the better commander.
Mortars shooting out only need a single observer/commander. Mortars shooting in are an area weapon which does not need to identify specific targets.
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on February 15, 2025, 12:44:44 PMHE can directly target a gully.
The enemy know that there are troops there.
They cannot bring effective direct shooting to bear.
martin :)
Whoops - I'd got that quite a bit wrong, then! Thanks for clarifying, Martin.
I'll have to remember that one, whether attacking or defending.
Simon
Company Commander.
1. Can he be in a vehicle?
2. Does the vehicle give him protection?
3. Can the vehicle have a MG mounted on it?
4. If the vehicle is hit does it all work the same as transport carrying troops?
Les, I think the answers to all 4 of your questions is the same - no! :D
I have Company Commanders in a vehicle for the look of the thing, but to all intents and purposes I believe they are the same - just a Company Commander!
Simon
I'm sure Simon is right. You can put him in a vehicle or anything else you want, but the CC cannot be anything else other than himself, so no weapons or armour that helps him.
John
Perhaps Martin should introduce 3vp for the best CC base?
John
The CC can be targeted if in a square with troops ,
If on his own he can't
He can be in a vehicle or on a horse or foot, it makes no difference to his status
Only dies if '1' is rolled for his save
Stewart
He cannot be piggy backing on an infantry man though.
martin :)
Thank you, I thought this was so but it is not set out in the new rules.
When you make your CC, do give us a picture Les. Your imagination can be exercised.
I am going to make a Dutch CC. My thoughts might be a horse,MC combination or bicycle. Possibly a car from the SCW range? The whole idea of custom CCs is very enjoyable to plan. I might even add a roadside sign as in the SS schwimwagen photo.
https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/joachim-peipers-bloody-blitz-through-belgium/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Saipan#/media/File:Marines_and_King_Kong_on_Saipan.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Singapore#/media/File:Surrender_Singapore.jpg
One for Miles.
martin :)
I did the Pieper one for the Ardennes game in 2016. I will put a picture up later.
Miles
Hello everyone!
If you don't mind, I'd like to take advantage of this thread to ask a question regarding the activation of vehicles.
If I have two vehicles from the same unit in the same square:
- Do I have to roll 2D6 for each vehicle separately to determine their AP and decide whether I want to reroll before moving to the next vehicle, or do I need to roll 2D6 for all vehicles first and then decide if I want to reroll?
- If I want to reroll for both vehicles, do I roll the dice just once and apply the result to both vehicles, or can I reroll separately for each vehicle? According to what is stated on page 71, there would be only one reroll that applies to all vehicles I choose to reroll.
- Is the example on page 95 correct? Reading the example, it seems as if you could roll 2D6 for one tank in a unit, perform actions with that tank, and then roll dice for another tank from the same unit to determine its AP. This is quite different from how infantry units are activated. With infantry, you must first select three squares and then roll dice for those three squares before performing actions with the units in them.
In summary, could you provide an example of how to activate a tank unit where a reroll is used for more than one tank?
Good question Pablo. Thanks for asking it.
That second eg is very wrong. Apologies. Silly me.
To make it better.
Here goes.
Any vehicle on its own. Roll 2D6 for AP. Then use those AP.
A pair of vehicles or guns in the same square.
Roll 2D6. Re-roll if wished.
Whatever the score is (2-12) apply to both vehicles.
e.g. Two vehicles of same unit in same square. Player rolls 2D6. Scores= 3 and 5=8AP.
Thinks "shall I re-roll? Decides to re-roll. Scores 1 and 3=4AP. Each of the two vehicles now has 4AP to use.
No vehicle from a unit can do any actions until all the AP are worked out.
This still applies if the vehicles are in separate squares.
No vehicle can do anything until all the AP for a unit are rolled for. Same for all other units.
The vehicle re-roll gives an advantage to vehicles operating with friends.
Vehicles are always more confident when with other vehicles of their unit. This is called mutual support. In WW2 tanks would work together in order to identify threats and respond with two heads instead of one.
Tanks on their own in WW2 were more cautious.
martin :)
Thank you so much for your reply, MartÃn! :)
If I understand correctly, we could say that tank activation works the same way as infantry units, but you roll two dice instead of one per square. In other words, if there's only one tank in a square, you roll 2d6 and apply the result to that tank. If there are two or more tanks in a square belonging to the same unit, you also roll 2d6 and apply the result to all tanks in that square, with the option to reroll. Essentially, you always roll 2d6 for each square containing tanks from the same unit, and in squares with more than one tank, you can decide if you want to roll the dice again.
Very correct Pablo
martin :)
Here is my take on the famous Pieper picture.
Miles
(https://i.postimg.cc/G883Rg1Z/IMG-5212.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G883Rg1Z)
Very good Miles
Stewart
A question regarding mortars:
According to the manual, mortars belonging to the same unit can only fire from one square, but after watching the video about mortars, they are fired from two different squares. Which one is correct? ::)
Hello Pablo
This is good work you are doing.
The rule book is correct.
I had better re do the mortar video.
martin :)
Here are some more questions that always make me a bit unsure about whether I am doing things correctly or not:
- Do all units within a square have to perform the same actions, or can some move while others shoot?
- Do units that move have to move together, or can they split into groups and go to different squares? I assume that in this case, I would need to track the APs remaining for each group separately.
- Can units within a square split and shoot at different squares? What happens if I want to shoot from a square that contains, for example, three rifle bases at two different squares? Let's say I fire with two bases at one square containing enemy units and the other base at a different square that also contains enemy units. Are both attacks resolved at the same time? Or would one be resolved first, applying the results of return fire to that attack, and then the second attack would be resolved? This is important because if they are not simultaneous and one is resolved before the other, it could happen that the return fire from the first attack eliminates my units, preventing me from carrying out the second attack.
- Do shots always have to be grouped together? That is, can I fire once, see what happens, fire again, see what happens, and then take the last shot? I understand that this is not the best option because I would receive three instances of return fire, but I still want to be sure that it is possible. In the Return Shooting section, it seems to suggest that shots can be divided.
- If I shoot at a unit and, by spending dice that were hits, I manage to pin the target, does the return shooting from that pinned unit also lose the first rolled 6?
Thank you all for taking a few minutes to help me clear up my doubts :)
Hello Pablo
You are an excellent play tester. Keep it up please.
The capital letters are to help differentiate between question and reply.
Do all units within a square have to perform the same actions, or can some move while others shoot?
THEY CAN ALL DO DIFFERENT THINGS.
Do units that move have to move together, or can they split into groups and go to different squares? I assume that in this case, I would need to track the APs remaining for each group separately.
THEY CAN ALL DO DIFFERENT THINGS/DIRECTIONS.
Can units within a square split and shoot at different squares? What happens if I want to shoot from a square that contains, for example, three rifle bases at two different squares? Let's say I fire with two bases at one square containing enemy units and the other base at a different square that also contains enemy units. Are both attacks resolved at the same time? Or would one be resolved first, applying the results of return fire to that attack, and then the second attack would be resolved?
PBI IS SEQUENTIAL. THIS MEANS THAT A PLAYER CARRIES OUT AN ACTION AND IT IS FINISHED (AND RESPONDED TO) BEFORE HE DOES ANOTHER ACTION.
DO NOTE THAT A SQUARE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO SPLIT ITS SHOOTING IF A TARGET SQUARE IS THE PRIORITY.
This is important because if they are not simultaneous and one is resolved before the other, it could happen that the return fire from the first attack eliminates my units, preventing me from carrying out the second attack.
YES THAT CAN HAPPEN.THAT IS INTENTIONAL. A PLAYER WHO WANTS TO DO SOMETHING MIGHT ENDANGER IT BY DOING ANOTHER ACTION FIRST. PLAYERS NEED TO UNDERSTAND TAHT THE PASSIVE PLAYER IS NOT TOTALLY PASSIVE.
Do shots always have to be grouped together? That is, can I fire once, see what happens, fire again, see what happens, and then take the last shot? I understand that this is not the best option because I would receive three instances of return fire, but I still want to be sure that it is possible. In the Return Shooting section, it seems to suggest that shots can be divided.
YOU CAN SHOOT SEPARATELY. IF YOU HAVE 3 RIFLE BASE WITH 3AP EACH THEY CAN SHOOT 9
SEPARATE TIMES. THIS WILL ALLOW THE TARGET TO RETURN SHOOT 9 TIMES TOO.
If I shoot at a unit and, by spending dice that were hits, I manage to pin the target, does the return shooting from that pinned unit also lose the first rolled 6?
YES. PBI IS SEQUENTIAL. IF YOU INFLICT A PIN THEY ARE PINNED INSTANTLY.
martin :)
My understanding is:-
1. No, bases within a square can do different things in most cases. Exceptions are removing a "pin" which has to be carried out by the square and removing dead bodies already in the square.
2. No, you can split up bases to move in any direction you like, or not move at all, provided you have enough AP.
3. I think you can split fire as long as you observe target priorities. i.e. you must shoot at enemy on your face rather than those on a diagonal. However each shooting is dealt with separately and so return fire could wipe you out before you got a second set of bases to fire.
4. No shots don't have to be grouped together. So you could fire once, see what the result is, and then fire again. However bear in mind that each time you fire you may get return fire. For example three German riflemen fire at one US LMG base. First shot of 3 dice all miss. US return fire of 2 dice scores a hit. Not saved. Second shot of 2 dice miss again. US reply of 2 dice scores another hit. Not saved. Final shot of 1 die also misses. US reply of 2 dice hits. Not saved. So the Germans have shot 6 dice in total. The US have replied with 6 dice. If the Germans had shot all three rounds at the same time they would have had 9 dice and the US would have replied with only 2 dice.
5. Yes. As long as a square is pinned it loses the first hit. The effect of pinning is immediate and lasts until the pin is removed.
I hope I have got that right.
John
Well said John.
Succinct.
martin :)
Removal of Dead Bodies.
That is done by everyone in the Square.
So that affects everyone's points there after !
I thought that had better be pointed out ?
Miles
Agreed Miles
martin :)
So you must remove dead bodies first.
No moving most bases out and leaving one behind, who then spends all his so removing bodies!
Hello Graham
All bases in a square contribute toward the casualty removal.
Otherwise 3 bases with 2AP each could clear 3 casualties. This would be far too quick and not inconvenience the platoon. Casualties need to inconvenience a platoon in a major way as in real life.
This works really well in PBI. I don't think any other WW2 rules encourage/use players to spend time caring for casualties? In the real world; If time is not used to help casualties morale will plummet. This is why there are such morale boosting phrases as "leave no man behind".
martin :)
I think I may have expressed my point badly!
Say 3 bases and one casualty are in a square with 4 Ap.
Can two of those bases move to the next square (1ap), and then fire 3ap, leaving the 1 left behind to spend all his ap on clearing the casualty.
Or
Do they have to all attempt to clear the casualty first, then move on with any AP left? ( this spreading out the platoon causing command issues in later turns)!
Also
I am confused as to what armour can or cannot fire in response to small arms fire, at foot in the same square? The rules seem different for transport//tanks/ and armour with Mg main weapons. Some section specifically say no response others don't mention it?
I have so far concluded that armours can't be included and that their small arms response is limited to opportunity fire as protection vs enemy foot getting close
They can of course target enemy foot in their own turn to provide very useful support to their own foot!
Unlike the old rules, you spend 2 AP and one body gets cleared. It is cleared.
This is the trade off ? You can clear the body-bodies for 2 AP per base but the Whole Square pays for it ! Or you can choose to leave them but then they become a millstone around your neck ?
So if you have 6 points. You can clear 2 bodies and then fire once or twice depending on the weapon fired ? Or move one or two squares depending on the Square type you are exiting?
But the whole square pays for the bodies. Example: Not just the AT rifle man because he has no tanks to fire at ?
Once the bodies have been accounted for any points left over can be used ( by the whole square bases) to do what you can else where across the table.
Hopefully that explains it ?
Miles
To clarify, if you have 4AP and three bases and a body. Two bases can move off for 1AP and fire once for 1AP but, if the third base wants to remove a body it must use 2AP from the square for every base that was in the square at the start of the turn for whom you were rolling the AP die. If the two bases want to spend 3AP on shooting that is fine, but then the third base cannot remove the body. It is not as complicated as it sounds. It would be easier to show you. Perhaps there is a video?
I'll leave someone more knowledgable to answer your armour question as I get confused about that.
John
PBI splits shooting into big shooting and small shooting.
Big shooting is guns, AT.
Small shooting is mgs, rifles.
Big shooting does not get return shooting and only 1 opportunity shot. This is Because big shooting has a much slower shot rate due to needing to load and target.
Small shooting can opportunity and return shoot.
Luckily, tanks have an ability in both categories. The gun is big shooting and the MG is small shooting.
The MG joins in with all small shooting (range 2 squares).
This includes opportunity, return and here they come shooting.
In these circumstances the tank mg is part of the maximum allowed 3,4,5 raw/av/vet limit.
martin :)
Quote from: John Watson on February 28, 2025, 09:15:22 AMTo clarify, if you have 4AP and three bases and a body. Two bases can move off for 1AP and fire once for 1AP but, if the third base wants to remove a body it must use 2AP from the square for every base that was in the square at the start of the turn for whom you were rolling the AP die. If the two bases want to spend 3AP on shooting that is fine, but then the third base cannot remove the body. It is not as complicated as it sounds. It would be easier to show you. Perhaps there is a video?
I'll leave someone more knowledgable to answer your armour question as I get confused about that.
John
I would like to confirm if this example is correct. In the same turn, can I move everyone out of a square where I have casualty markers and leave only one base to try to remove the casualties?
Yes but the troops you move out must also pay the AP to remove the body. So you do not benefit from moving them out first.
John
Quote from: John Watson on March 01, 2025, 01:19:54 PMYes but the troops you move out must also pay the AP to remove the body. So you do not benefit from moving them out first.
John
Oh! I misread your previous comment, John! Now I understand it! Thank you very much for replying ;)
Just noticed, but in p21 when describing the adjustment to the dice for BAR, mg34
, Mmg etc. Opportunity fire and return fire are mentioned, but not here they come?
Is this intentional, or does it apply to any fire? Including here the come.
Hello Paul
Yes it includes here they come.
MG modifiers apply in all circumstances everywhere. MMG is restricted to one paid shot but all response shots.
martin :)
Here they come fire is a form of return fire and so any bonuses/penalties apply. That is my understanding.
John
Indeed John.
martin :)
Going back to the casualty removal question.
How do you guys manage action points when a foot base moves into a square containing a casualty and other foot bases. The square with the casualty has not been activated yet.
Can the base that moves in expend 2 of their action points to remove the casualty leaving the other bases who were already in that square free to be activated without the 2AP needing to be spent on casualty removal.
I've played that as yes. PBI being sequential so the foot base activated earlier has dealt with the casualty so when the square is then activated subsequently there isn't a casualty so no deduction of 2APs.
Asking because of the reference to the whole square having to pay the 2APs. I agree with that if the casualty is in the square at the time that square is activated. But the reference to whole square made me question how I play this when a base moves into a yet to be activated square and removes the casualty.
I think you have it right Nigel.
Pin and casualty removal are group efforts. All bases using a single AP score must contribute AP per casualty removal or 1AP per pinned removal attempt.
Here is an alternative explanation which might help.
2AP must be given up from the original D6 AP roll for each casualty removed.
e.g. A player rolls 5 for AP. If any casualty is removed by that 5AP score it becomes 5-2=3 for all the bases. If another casualty is removed then 5-2-2=1AP. Each base for which the 5 was rolled only has 1AP for this current turn.
Formula. Original AP roll -2 per casualty removed= AP available to all bases.
e.g Initial AP roll of 6. player wishes 2 casualties to be removed. 6-2-2=2 Therefore each base has 2AP to do whatever it likes.
e.g 6 is rolled for the AP or a 5 base square. All of the bases wish to go in different directions. If one base wishes to remove a casualty from a square it travels to, then all of the bases from the original square only have 6-2=4AP points for the current turn. "everyone pays".
martin :)
What happens if there are casualties in the same square you activate to calculate APs?
Let's say I have three bases in a square along with a Casualty marker, and I have 6 APs available for all bases in that square.
Do I have to remove the casualties before doing anything else?
Or can I, for example:
1. Move two bases out of the square, spending 1 AP, leaving the third base in the original square with the Casualty marker.
2. Fire twice with the two bases that moved.
3. Now, remove the Casualty marker from the original square with the base that stayed there.
4. Move the two bases that previously moved and fired one more square forward, spending the last AP.
5. Finally, spend the 4 remaining APs on the base that removed the Casualty marker to move.
Would this sequence be allowed?
Quite right Pablo.
Maybe tell players "Everyone pays"?
martin :)