Meanwhile my last order is on the road and I'm waiting to receive my so much wanted (and so long time waited) vikings miniatures, does anyone can suggest me any source to be inspired for historically painting them?
I would like to avoid that grey/brown middle age filter used in hollywood movies and to be as much accurate as I can.
I really like the painted examples on the Dark Age miniatures page in the site.
Thank you very much
Daniele
It won't help much with the colours, but for inspiration I'd recommend Bernard Cornwell's Last Kingdom series.
I'm re-reading all the books at the moment, and they really are good.
There do indeed seem to have been lots of colours available at the time. I'm starting off with the duller linen, greys, browns and greens for my Levy. I'll add some more colour as I do the Unarmoured and then really go to town on the Armoured and Leaders.
I'm going for uniform colours for wood and leather, to help tie things together. I wouldn't use black, white or purple, but red, blue, orange and fairly bright green all seem to have been available.
Does that help any? And I stand to be corrected by folk more knowledgeable than me!
Simon
Recently it has been thought that Dark Age clothing was more colourful than previously believed. Most dyes were plant based, although soil types could also provide some dyes. The most common would have been greens and yellows, but reds, browns and greys were also popular. Blue was a more expensive dye, but would still be seen in various shades. Purples would have been rare. Unbleached and bleached wool and linen was also used, thus ranging from white through the full spectrum of greys and browns, so creamy colours would also be seen. The last viking I painted was a chieftain. Under his armour he has a light blue grey tunic, red trousers and over all a darkish blue cloak, the dye denoting his status.
Most colours would have been available. As previously said purple/mauve would be rare, usually reserved for royalty or high ranking nobles. However as dyes then were organic they tended to be less bright than modern colours. Also they would fade towards greys and browns over time. Natural colours were common as was red in various shades. Trim would also be common.
Huscarls would be relatively wealthy and so would wear the brightest colours to display their wealth and success. They would also get the best plunder. Gold and silver adornments would be common.
Bondi would be poorer free men or liege men of huscarls. They would have fewer bright colours than huscarls and natural colours would be more common.
Skirmishers would be the poorest or youngest troops and would be poorly dressed in natural colours.
If you want more information I would recommend Osprey Men at Arms number 85 on Saxon, Viking and Normans or Armies of the Dark Ages by Ian Heath, published by the Wargames Research Group. Both are readily available in the UK.
John
Could always sit down and binge watch the Last Kingdom. Apart from an idea of the clothes its a good watch. Slow in places but worthwhile.
Reading is good but watching is better.
Derek
Put in Natural Dyes colours from plants into Google ?
This gives you a lot of ideas as what colours would have been available to use ?
Miles
(https://i.postimg.cc/34mG3zp7/IMG-2676.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34mG3zp7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V0FbCMDV/IMG-2677.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V0FbCMDV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RJmHhGQt/IMG-2678.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJmHhGQt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDP1WmTQ/IMG-2679.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDP1WmTQ)
Very good, Miles!
I've seen the middle two pictures before, but the colour chart is also very interesting.
Simon
You know me, I do try and do my homework?
I ve looked into doing ancients so needed to know what colours would be acceptable to use ?
Especially now there is quite a good range of colours available!
Miles
Thank you all for your interesting suggestions... :)
The WAB book that covered the period included painting advice: there was a suggestion of adding small amounts of flesh coloured paint to colours to get a "washed out" look for non-fast dye colours.
Neil
The Bayeaux tapestry is a good source for the sorts of coloured threads about at the time.
Martyn S
Ok, now it's time to have some considerations about shields.
I have three possibilities:
1)The first one is very hard and time vasting, each man has its own colours and scheme, I think it wasn't probably the case and too much difficult to achieve;
2)Each Chief has its own colours, so the idea is to paint the same shields for all the men in the same unit (i.e. five different schemes for Longships);
3) Each family has its own colours, so I should paint 7-8 miniatures with a scheme, than start with another one and so on. This implies that miniatures with different schemes may also be put on the same base, in fact there's no reasons to have the members of one family to be all levy or all armoured. Obviously each unit would be composed by the same 3-4 families, at the orders of the same chief, so no mixing colours and schemes in different units.
What do yu think about, folks?
;D
Every ideas welcomed
Daniele
Daniele,
I've been having similar thoughts.
I'm doing my Saxons right now, but when I do my Vikings it's going to be a colour theme per ship / crew / unit.
I'm also going for plain shields for Levy, two paimted colours for Unarmoured and then shield transfers with nice designs for Armoured.
I'll be using Little Big Man transfers, once Victrix have sorted out their production (Victrix having recently acquired LBM).
I seem to remember Stewart having successfully used LBM transfers designed for Khurassan miniatures for his Peter Pig models - could you please confirm I have that right, Stewart?
Simon
My Vikings I did in random colours. The elites and veterans had quartered colours, the trained had halved colours and the levy had single colours. This was a great idea until I realised that most of the shields would be facing my opponent!
One thing to bear in mind when painting Viking shields is that the earlier Vikings were pagans and so shield designs would be animals and birds and other non Christian symbols. Many later Vikings converted to Christianity and so the symbolism would change to crosses and so forth.
My Vikings are pagans but my Saxons (when I get round to painting) them will be Christians.
John
Vikings are a nice army to use in CK. Their problem can be opponent quality cavalry.
The veterans cannot be everywhere at the same/right time to bounce off cavalry charges.
John's veteran armoured vikings can stand their ground, so long as their flanks can hold out for long enough.
Viking armies have a wargamer "plus plus" because gamers love the ease of information and film/fiction about this army.
For myself the "Last kingdom" added to the enjoyment of these armies.
martin :)
Later period I know but the MiddelAlder Centre in Denmark https://www.middelaldercentret.dk/om-os is an inspiration to me and gives me all sorts of visual cues on colours and possible vignettes for the medieval gaming table. Also other reenactment/living history sites like https://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/about
Plenty of visual references to inspire you
Happy Viking!
Neil
Thank you all.
Quote from: martin goddard on December 28, 2024, 01:37:39 PMVikings are a nice army to use in CK. Their problem can be opponent quality cavalry.
The veterans cannot be everywhere at the same/right time to bounce off cavalry charges.
John's veteran armoured vikings can stand their ground, so long as their flanks can hold out for long enough.
Viking armies have a wargamer "plus plus" because gamers love the ease of information and film/fiction about this army.
For myself the "Last kingdom" added to the enjoyment of these armies.
martin :)
Just finished to watch "Last Kingdom" a month ago and I really enjoyed it. You touched an interesting point, cavalry. I noticed the saxons range has not cavalry, cause I still didn't study about the historical background of this army, I ask you, didn't you sculpt saxons cavalry because they didn't use, or was it planned for a later moment?
Nice question Daniele.
Vikings and Saxons both used horses a lot for sport and some transport.
The UK fighting was mainly shield wall v shield wall with no one needing cavalry. The ground is too lumpy for good charges (even in the WOTR)?
I did not make cavalry as they do not feature in any longships battle. The exception is the Carolingians, who did use a fair number of cavalry against the vikings etc. Carolingian cavalry was a necessity as there were many borders and many foes moving about their lands. Got to get there "firtest with the mostest".
The mounted vikings can be used as messengers etc for both armies.
The PP range is 9th century just like the last kingdom.
Norman invasion 200 years later (11th century)
I hope that gives some light??
martin :)
As martin wrote - both Saxon (/English) and Viking armies may have ridden to/from battles, but fought on foot.
The only reference to Saxons 'fighting while mounted' was a saga which mentioned mounted Saxons attacking footslogging Vikings at Stamford Bridge 1066. However, the saga was (IIRC) written somewhere around 1250 AD, and after much debate it has been concluded that the writer was applying the 'normal' of his day (nobles fighting while mounted)to the troops of a previous era, or possibly getting confused with the action at Hastings (this is all from memory, but something along those lines).
I read somewhere, a few years ago now, that Harold Godwinson used cavalry when attacking the Welsh in the 1050s. However these may have been some Normans fighting for him and hired by King Edward. Apparently these same Normans built the first motte and bailey in England on the Welsh border. A pity I cannot remember the reference for this.
Quote from: Leman (Andy) on December 31, 2024, 11:06:48 AMI read somewhere, a few years ago now, that Harold Godwinson used cavalry when attacking the Welsh in the 1050s. However these may have been some Normans fighting for him and hired by King Edward. Apparently these same Normans built the first motte and bailey in England on the Welsh border. A pity I cannot remember the reference for this.
Battle of Hereford, Oct. 1055. English under a (possibly) Norman local lord, Ralph, fled on horseback. Suggestions that the English had been 'made' to fight mounted, against their usual style/training.
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on December 27, 2024, 12:10:39 PMI seem to remember Stewart having successfully used LBM transfers designed for Khurassan miniatures for his Peter Pig models - could you please confirm I have that right, Stewart?
Simon
Simon, is Stewart a member of this forum? I was suggested to use LBM transfers by my brother too, he used them with a very nice result for an hoplite army some years ago. I would like to send him a pm to be sure I can use the ones for Khurassan miniatures.
Thanks
Daniele
Damiele,
Yes - Stewart 46A is a stalwart member of this Forum.
Even if he's been ignoring us on this thread :)
Simon
I like never met him your honour. Know what I mean.
And I was not even there, innit.
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on January 10, 2025, 07:42:47 AMI like never met him your honour. Know what I mean.
And I was not even there, innit.
martin :)
I've met your sort before, sonny Jim.
Help help i'm being oppressed.
martin :)
Hi
I'm back
Been busy in outaspace dealing with a lot of creepers
Here are the Viking designs I used
Stewart
(https://i.postimg.cc/mtL5QzSW/IMG-2289.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtL5QzSW)
Thanks Stewart, and welcome back from outer space, keeping the final frontier clear of alien beings.
You have answered the question perfectly - Khurasan shield transfers it is!
Unfortunately, we can't buy any until Victrix have got tooled up to produce them for Little Big Man Studios:
https://www.littlebigmenstudios.com/
They say late January / February.
Fortunately I still have quite a few figures to paint up before having to worry about their shields ;)
Simon
Thank you very much Stewart, I'll order these transfers asap. The banners seem me very large if compared with the transfers for the shields. Is it just an impression? And above all, did vikings use such banners in the early period?
Daniele
I really don't know
But how really cares
They look good and pick out the unit and army leaders
Stewart
Daniele
Wargames Designs do these sheets in a number of scales, I find the 10mm sheets work well for 15mm.
Chris
From what I have read banners were common amongst Vikings, probably with the leaders as a rallying point for each battle group. Whether they looked like the ones in Stewart's picture is open to debate but if you look at examples of Viking art you will find that there are common themes, such as ravens.
I'm with Stewart that banners look good on the table.
John
Quote from: Stewart 46A on January 10, 2025, 11:42:46 PMDaniele
I really don't know
But how really cares
They look good and pick out the unit and army leaders
Stewart
Stewart, I completely agree, I simply asked you because I like to try to paint historically, it's a part of my fun while painting and my idea is to paint vikings of the early period, i.e. before having too much influences by the contact with Anglo-Saxons or Franks. If you ever posted any pics of your vikings in the dedicated section of the forum I'd be glad to watch.
Finally I'm just going to start to paint, I gave the primer just now...just a question for experts of the game. I thought to put a few archer miniatures on the basis supposed to be in the second rank (levy, unarmoured?), this to simulate archers firing from the rear of a shieldwall, considering that it seems that they weren't organized in special archers' units. I read the rules but I still never played a game and have a little confusion. Are there basis that, considering the mechanism of the game, are more likely to be deployed in the first rank (may be armoured or bersekers) to which not to assign archers?
Hello Daniele
You can put them as sprinkles within all the bases.
Using longships rules. Historically the vikings fought as "boats". This means that the crew of a boat all stand together. Hence why there were no units of specific troop types. No boat commander would send off some of his crew to another part of the battlefield. Instead, the toughest men would be at the front of his battle line column.Lesser me behind. Each boat contributes a column, thus giving an overall tough front rank for the army etc. The bowmen would be within each boat column.
Do remember that a 1000 men could constitute an army which would be very trivial in the great armies of the ancient world.
I have made abase just of bowmen for the option of "super shooting" that a unit might achieve through the pre game scenario.
martin :)
In the rules, I seem to recall all units can shoot. Therefore a sprinkling of archers might remind you of this fact because I ALWAYS forget 😄
Indeed Sean. All units shoot.
Less effective if they themselves are in shieldwall.
I often drop the shieldwall shoot once or twice if at distance the put the shields up again. Too risky if close to the enemy. You might not get the shields up again quick enough.
A good read for an overall Viking impression would be "the Viking art of War" by Paddy Griffiths.
martin :)