I want to put together a late war 1944-45 British company together. In carriers. M3/M5 and modified tanks and SPG's (defrocked tanks!)
Now if I understand this correctly the Carrier will be equipped with an (standard) LMG with a 360 degree fire as standard and standard minimal armour +4 ?
If you want to upgrade them, then this will cost extra points? As it should do.(HMG, plus additional MG's)
The whole force, company has to be "mobile" so whatever you put in must be on wheels and tracks to enter the game ? Whether it's defending or Attacking ?
Can you also mix and match what type of vehicles they all arrive in ?
From a British point of view: Bren Carriers, M3/M5 Halftracks, M3 Scout Cars and trucks and Modified Tanks (Ram Kangaroos, defrocked Priests, Sherman Kangaroos etc) depending on costing ?
I am going to guess for simplicity the M3/M5 half track, M3 Scout car and Modified tank carriers will be classed as the same unless extra points are spent on them ? The Bren carrier how will this be classed please ? Trucks these being the cheapest vehicles to run with, unarmed and unarmoured unless extra points spent on them too ?
So with all of the above in mind. Can you please give us a basic list of a typical force with costings please ? Also any additional information for any add-ons as you see it ?
That way there will be no confusion.
Many thanks.
Miles
Miles,
I think there are a few topics in here.
My understanding is that a transport is a (generic) transport. It is either tracked and armoured with an LMG (special rules apply as to its use) or wheeled, unarmoured and unarmed.
What models you use to depict such transports doesn't matter, as long as they are clearly tracked, armed and armoured, or wheeled and not.
There is no provision to up-armour or up-gun transports. With the sole exception of the 37mm-armed command half-track within a standard German platoon.
Do I have that right, Martin?
Simon
Simon, I know I raised several topics but these had to be raised, with Martins corrections, as this issues needs absolute answers. AK 47 will probably bring up some of these issues too ? Hence why I tried to layer the question/questions ?
But with that aside, it just needs proper and rightly solving.
Miles
If I remember correctly simplicity has been the order of the day. So rules as written there are two types of transport, unarmed/unarmoured and armed/with armour.
Which category you choose to put your transport in is up to you, but you pay the cost for which ever one you choose.
Whether or not you can come up with some advanced or house rules to distinguish the multitude of transports during the war I'd another question. But I suspect for games days or competitions you'll need to follow the rules as written.
All very interesting.
Nothing useful to add to Sean and Simon's thoughts/information.
Here are some clarifying overall notes though.
The transports are usually only used for 1 turn. This would be the arrival turn.
It is very rare for them to be carrying bases around after turn 1.
In WW2 it was very rare and often ill advised to drive up to with 100 yards of enemy in defence.
Because of this, PBI is encouraging (not forcing) players to act historically.
WW2 ground warfare is very complex if one looks at details.
Although some rule sets create a mass of detailed numbers, they do not create the motivation for players to use transports correctly. They swamp with statistical detail but do not do well in historical mirroring. Too often those rules become top trumps not tactical trumps.
I advise that the creation of detailed rules for transports would work against the overall aim of PBI for no good purpose.
This all sounds a bit harsh, but PBI is a great game that does compromises detail in order to remain a great game. People who like this sort of thing, will find this the sort of thing they like.
I accept that some want more detail. No problem at all with that. Good wishes. Maybe make up some extra rules and use them in particular games? Enjoy.
martin :)
I have had a further look Miles.
You should have the last pdf edition.
Section 17 in the rules will be helpful.
There are 5 pages on transports.
We could add some more pages?
martin :)
Ok thanks Martin I will have a look.
I ve got a couple of months until I was going to do this. AK47 and Colours board are next on my list of projects to do.
As always I give myself time to look, learn see what's available and acquire what is needed.
Miles
All good.
I appreciate that you have found it a bit confusing and you wanted some clarification Miles.
This should help:-
7 points per half track/armoured transport. Comes with an LMG (special rules).
3 points per truck transport. No armament.
Transports carry up to 4 bases.
e.g. A platoon of 11 bases would need 3 transports. Transport 1 would carry 4 bases. Transport 2 would carry 4 bases. Transport 3 would only carry 3 bases.
The cost would be 3+3+3= 9 if trucks. The cost would be 7+7+7=21 for armoured transports. thsi just adds on to the platoon cost.
Universal carriers. Just call them armoured transports.
M5/M3 et al. Just call them armoured transports.
250 and 251 sdkfz are also treated the same as armoured transports.
Some ideas that you might want to use for some added detail. Maybe a MILL article for you to do Miles?
Ram etc. pay for a normal Sherman, gun 7 armour 7 (35 points) but allow it to carry foot bases (just 3) and allow it an LMG. It will get the 7 armour, which is what I assume you are after.
The defrocked Sexton/priest gun7/armour 7. You would pay for the HE value, but get a deduction for fixed gun. main gun replaced with HMG which will make it good as an attacking unit which I assume you wanted. Can carry 4 bases.
When destroyed, these tank transports would give more victory points as they are of higher value.
I think that better armoured and armed transports would be good for those who want to use them as attack weapons. I can see why some gamers would want that.
If you are going to do an article Mies, do add in the USMC LVTP,alligator.buffalos etc. The USMC stuff should be done first, as it was far more numerous and significant than British stuff. Maybe make some differences for smaller and larger trucks. QL small 4x2. Don't forget the Japanese half tracks. The French half tracks might be a category of their own due to the limited protection.
I can also mention many other types of transports for you to include.
A lot of work but it might be useful for some?
I will put up a typical British platoon cost including transport cost if that would help Miles?
martin :)
Miles, If you want to field a carrier force then Flames of War might be the way to go. The rules are straight forward and easily obtained, looking at their Battle of the Bulge army lists for the British the following force is listed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJ9ymqGq/Ram-Kangaroo-Card-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJ9ymqGq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bD905x83/Kangaroo-Rifle-Platoon-Card-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bD905x83)
Kangaroo Rifle Company
Formation
100 points
Kangaroo Rifle Company HQ
2x Sten SMG team
1x Ram Kangaroo
3 points
Kangaroo Rifle Platoon
7x Bren Gun & SMLE rifle team
1x PIAT anti-tank team
1x 2-inch mortar team
3x Ram Kangaroo
11 points
Kangaroo Rifle Platoon
7x Bren Gun & SMLE rifle team
1x PIAT anti-tank team
1x 2-inch mortar team
3x Ram Kangaroo
11 points
Wasp Carrier Patrol
3x Wasp (flame-thrower) 4 points
Universal Carrier Patrol
3x Universal Carrier (MG) 2 points
Universal Carrier Patrol
3x Universal Carrier (MG) 2 points
Formation Support
Chaffee Recce Patrol
3x Chaffee (75mm) 10 points
Comet Armoured Troop
3x Comet (77mm) 21 points
Challenger Armoured Troop
3x Challenger (17 pdr) 21 points
Support
Sexton Field Troop
2x Sexton (25 pdr) 6 points
Archer SP Anti-tank Troop
2x Archer (17 pdr) 9 points
Thanks Dave
A lot of typing done.
The Chaffee "recce patrol" :o with 9 tanks will be a favourite I think.
Flames of war certainly seems to fit what Miles wants.
Problem solved.
martin :)
I am slightly confused with the Ram Kangaroos with a gun 7 ?
The turret is taken off to allow the troops somewhere to sit ?
All these vehicles were used without their respective guns and turrets as they were surplus to requirements. But a vehicle that could keep the troops relatively safe on a battlefield environment and keep pace with the armoured units was required ? So the defrocked Priests after having their the 105mm taken out, as these were replaced by the Sextons, as the US couldn't supply everyone with 105mm ammunition. So that's why we had a surplus of these vehicles. I do believe priests had a lot less armour on them ? So I would class a lot of these as Armour 4 or 5 at best, especially as they are open topped ?
As PBI "Armour" is generic and simplified I think these would be better values ? These are after all battlefield taxis not main assault weapons ? It's only there possible cross country ability that really distinguishes them from their Half track cousins ?
This is why they were named Defrocked Priests and Ram Kangaroos? I believe that some older Sherman hulls were also given the same treatment in 1945 as they were replaced with a lot of the newer tanks.
Also slightly confused why the USMC inventory has been mentioned in respect of winter 1944-45 period of Europe as I am trying to address the needs of the British forces before crossing the Rhine ?
Not the Pacific Island hoping or the Rhine Crossings which a lot of these vehicles were used for.
But you did raise an interesting point with the Sherman's. As a tank the vehicle can carry 3 bases ? Because I was then going to ask about "tank riders" as a lot of nations (Russias, Germans, US and the Commonwealth) did use this as a good way to bring the accompanied infantry onto the battlefield?
Also the Carrier based question wasn't really answered either ? As you have Carrier platoons in the Company Architect ?
But how many Carriers are used and represented are not ?
So that's all I was hinting at ?
The Waterborne carriers is a subject matter all on its own, and mainly a Pacific thing.
So back to setting up a British late war carrier force please ?
I just wanted some hints and advise ? From a PBI point of view ?
Miles
Miles
PBI is finished.
I have no interest in fiddling around with trivial detail.
I have no interest in focusing constantly on British trivia, be it PIATs, Brens, universal carriers or the variety of transports used by them. PBI is for all nations not a detailed handbook for the player who only ever plays with British.
Let us just play PBI as the wonderful system it is.
If you constantly want more detail, then PBI is not the game for you.
I apologise if this seems harsh, but we need to recognise that you and I will never agree on including trivial details.
martin
Miles,
I think Martin is saying pay for the Ram as if it's a Sherman. Your Ram will have armour 7 and an MG like other armoured transports in the game. Just ignore the gun 7.
I can I find out why all I asked was a simple question and I am getting a load of something that I wasn't looking for ?
I asked about the Bren gun Carrier platoon, how do I field what is in the book please how many models do I need to put on the table ? How many bases to go into each model ?
Russia and the Soviet Forces also used these vehicles thru lend lease a lot and made up very similar forces so it would be applicable to the Russians as well as the British
Then I asked about the M3/M5 half tracks and M3 Scout cars but I think these are simpler to answer 4 per model. Then I thought while we are about it do I basically treat the modified tanks as Half tracks ?
Simple questions and I get a whole load of things about USMC, Japanese and French half tracks, tanks with guns, advise how to put troops on M24 Chaffees tanks ?
And a sermon about how PBI is finished.
Well I know it is finished all I wanted was some simple advise and answers ? ? ?
I wasn't asking for rule changes or any special treatment for the British, just some SIMPLE advise.
Something to put on a games table that looks the period and not out of place in the Corner of Holland in the winter of 1944.
Personally I was thinking about using the Modified tanks and SPG platforms as you would Half tracks ? Costing etc. This is actually how they are classed in the company Architect ?
Miles
All I was asking was some advise on British carrier company. If I had asked about a German Panzer Grenadier company would I had a different response?
Only difference I can see mainly is the first platoon may be equipped with Bren Carriers ?
This has always got me. As it is a small vehicle when put up against a Half Track US or German ?
So how many models should I put on the table ? To represent a mobile force in Bren carriers ?
Then the other one. With this "Mobile Force" is what happens when you put them in defence ? Because it says in the rules "All" the force in or out of carriers ?
Also I not seen the last copy before it went off" to the printers" was there any detail changes ?
I just thought the list and advise might be useful for those that might want to put a British Mobile force together ?
Where did making house rules and other things come into the conversation? I was never looking at changing any rules. I was trying very much to keep it in the rules frame work. But we have had that many changes in the past few months my "recent" copy might not have been rules as now ?
Miles
I'm not sure on the answer other than to say I sure it can be resolved by classing transports into one of the two categories.
As to carrying capacity, I'm not sure. Does it say in the current Architect? I don't think it'll be vastly different. How many were used in reality?
I'm really ignorant of this kind of granular detail as to WW2 TO&E. I'll always bow to those more knowledgeable than me.
Myself and Simon have had sensible discussions and debate on this over the afternoon and we think we have come up with the answers.
After reading both the current rules also looking at the current company architect and come up with a reasonable solutions.
We have raised a couple of simple questions which will hopefully be resolved in a simple manor.
Miles.
Sorted!
Are you planning on playing PBI at the Weekender? If so I'll bring down my Germans!
Hi Miles
I believe the last thought was that a base with 2 universal carriers on (carry 4 inf bases)
Would be the same has a US M3 or German 250
Hope that helps
Stewart
Quote from: Stewart 46A on July 10, 2024, 01:49:50 PMHi Miles
I believe the last thought was that a base with 2 universal carriers on (carry 4 inf bases)
Would be the same has a US M3 or German 250
Hope that helps
Stewart
That's indeed where we got to, thanks Stewart.
Simon
Thanks Stewart, as Simon say that's where we got to.
Could be anything upto 8 models, for the Bren Carrier platoon plus the other vehicles for the other platoons.
This would include a number of Half track models and/or Kangaroo models around about 4 models per platoon.
Would look impressive on the table.
Miles
Hi Miles
Is there a TO&E for a DUKE carrier company you could translate into PBI points?
I agree that you'd point then as an armoured transport with MG. Looking at photos online a max capacity of four foot bases as per rules seems ok.
I'd probs carry a section (3 bases) in each with the PC added to one.
Universal Carriers ive always tested as two vehicle models count as one transport and can carry four bases - as per current PBI. I count them as armoured transport, no MG.
There is a carrier platoon included with one of the British lists in the CA.
So for a mobile force i'd just use the motorised company from CA but use kangaroos instead of 1/2 tracks. With one platoon in carriers - two vehicles counting as one transport - i have two carrier models on one base.
You could point the kangaroo differently to represent it having more armour than a halftrack. Armour 7 instead of 4. Use the points builder in the rules, or just call it 14 points (on basis armour 4 1/2 track is 8). But tbh as they are open tipped and intended to be used as transport not assault i'd tear them as transports as per the new rules.
So it doesn't seem too tricky to create a mobile late War company.
CC in white scout car or dingo
X1 PN carrier (10-12 bases in 8 carrier models)
X2 PN in kangaroo (10-12 bases in 3 kangaroo models
And some shermans, or cromwells.
I haven't read back through the whole thread so if I've missed a key point i'm sorry.
I agree with what your thinking, but personally I would just substitute the Kageroos for Half tracks as the "carriers aren't going to be on the table forever and it's a lot of points to "waste"( the modified tanks and SPGs were never intended to fight, just keep keep up with the mobile forces and hopefully survive longer !) I would have an MG on each Bren carrier "stand" as for most Armoured carriers for the couple of turns you might want to use them supporting the platoon getting to the target area ?
Yes they are never used in the Assault but they can be used to lay down fire either at the intended target or supporting squares around the target ? Those extra few hits might cause causalities or pinning that will help a lot in the long run ?
Waterborne transport I am not quite sure how "Armoured" they were ?
But the rules now are quite simple they do allow for you to pay for them being armoured or not ? So whatever you pay that's what you use them for ! Same with being armed with or without an MG ?
The specialists vehicles would have to be paid for as an individual vehicle and kept for that scenario? With the Stuart turrets and other things ?
It is something I will look into over the course of time.
Miles
So long as you pay the appropriate points, you can have what you want, accepting that it's either armoured or unarmoured.
So those Bren carriers would be paid for as armoured with MGs which is absolutely fine and straight forward.
I think we got there in the end.
Miles