Is anyone interested in a day of making templates?
Probably a mutually liked Saturday or Sunday in July 2024?
A bit like being at primary school.
ie. there will be a playtime and squash.
Proposal
A group of us get together at PPHQ.
We make a large quantity of 12x 6 or whatever templates for AK 47/other.
We cut out the mdf.
We paint and flock them.
We add flock, rocks and static grass.
Each person goes home with 5-24 templates as wished.
Costs will be:-
1. Paint (probably a tough matt mix from B &Q in agreed colours)
2. MDF sheeting (2mm?)
3. Glue (PVA?)
4. Tufts
5. Rocks
6. Foam for hills.
7. Rocky outcrop
8. Sand
9. Sander, knives (plus plasters?)
10. 1970s pop hits?
11. Sisal string
12. Tetrion
13. Gloss varnish for water features.
This is an initial thought patch.
This can all be done in one sunny day 9 -5. The long time is needed for paint/glue dry etc.
martin :)
I'm not sure I'd be able to make it in the near future, but that sounds like a fun day, Martin.
Could I suggest that you consider getting the MDF templates cut in advance? It's really nasty for the lungs, and rather safer and overall neater to get it laser cut. Now, if only we collectively knew someone - ideally on the South Coast - with access to a rather large laser cutter who understands exactly what wargamers need for this sort of thing... ;)
An alternative to MDF is plastic. Miles got me some very useful 2mm (?) white plastic that I used to make my own set of AK47 templates. They cut nicely with a jigsaw and are easy to sand and bevel to get rid of the rough edges. For the current rules, so they're all be wrong soon, of course!
Simon
Warbases would oblige. Judging by their website, it would be around £1.50 per template. I'll investigate amd report back.
Precut is also a good idea so everyone doesn't need to have a saw.
I'd be interested in taking part.
I'd be interested, depending on the date.
John
I would be very interested in coming along.
Miles.
I've made a gentle enquiry with Warbases. I'd be happy to place a large order to share. I've also enquired about a little club discount.
Once Martin at Warbases gets back to me I'll let you know and then when we firm up the details we can make a decision on whether to cut our own or order precut.
"Hi Sean,
Thanks for your email.
We have assumed 3mm MDF due to the overall size of the bases, however if you prefer 2mm please let us know, the price will be the same.
Here is your quote:
12" x 6" Pill Shaped Bases (3mm) = £1.75 each
For an order of 30+ of the above bases we can offer a 10% discount.
P&P is dependent on the overall weight of the parcel and for an order of 30 would be £5.00.
If you wish to proceed with an order please confirm the delivery address and telephone number and we will issue an invoice.
Kind regards.
Diane
Warbases Administrator "
How does this sound?
Pill shaped bases:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXjXDzZr/Screenshot-20240521-131752-Chrome.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXjXDzZr)
Oval shaped bases:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hhbvwpx9/Screenshot-20240521-131948-Samsung-Internet.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhbvwpx9)
I think I'll order a few anyway but if these are suitable, I'm happy to place an order and bring them down and people can pay me on receipt.
Let me know if this is any good to anyone.
If you ask nicely, they might create some other shapes for you too, Sean?
I find ovals, and rectangles with rounded corners, generally work well. Maybe also a "fat 8" one too?
Simon
Fat 8 is good for woods.
Miles
Here are some pictures of what I do to paint and texture the templates.
Miles
(https://i.postimg.cc/7fxxXpK8/IMG-3125.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7fxxXpK8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fk7XgSh3/IMG-3126.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fk7XgSh3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jCYPXQB0/IMG-3127.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jCYPXQB0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CnwVPqHH/IMG-3128.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CnwVPqHH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFGvwnr1/IMG-3129.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFGvwnr1)
What's that mix Miles?
I was thinking of either using exterior textured paint (which is expensive) or mixing my own with some emulsion and sand and adding in some craft paint to colour it. Or, apply sand to the template using PVA and then painting it.
As to some odd shapes, I'm sure that can be arranged.
Experience suggests that painting on a sand mix is a great way to very quickly clog and ruin brushes...
I usually mix up a paint / filler / PVA mix and then sprinkle on sand when wet. Then spray on water to help bed the sand in. Allow to dry well, knock off loose sand and then proceed to use a variety of brown inks (on drops from the bottle, followed by gentle water sprays to spread them around) and layers of dry-brushes in variations on the base colour.
Have I learned all that OK, Miles? :)
Simon
I used to make up my own version of Basetex using PVA, sand and paint, but I found that it didn't give a sufficiently textured finish. Also it ruined brushes. So i switched to applying PVA first, then dipping the wet base in a sand bath. Once the base was thoroughly dry I knocked and brushed off any residue and then painted and dry brushed the base. Much kinder on the brushes and a nicer appearance.
John
Yes I know what you mean about painting on a sand/pai t mix like Basetex. I'd love to know what Simon uses at S and A but I suspect its a trade secret!
Quote from: John Watson on May 21, 2024, 11:29:35 PMI used to make up my own version of Basetex using PVA, sand and paint, but I found that it didn't give a sufficiently textured finish. Also it ruined brushes. So i switched to applying PVA first, then dipping the wet base in a sand bath. Once the base was thoroughly dry I knocked and brushed off any residue and then painted and dry brushed the base. Much kinder on the brushes and a nicer appearance.
John
It sounds as though we've arrived at a similar place, John?
Simon
This is progressing well.
Matters to be sorted (gosh).
1. Templates. Sean might get a huge batch from WARBASES. Rectangles with curved corners?
2. Paint. This might be a bigger decision. Do we need to be all doing the same thing/colour. Probably , although we could have two production lines.
Paint can be gotten in any colour we like from a paint merchant (B&Q et al). Household paints can be satin or matt. They are also pretty strong.
3. Hills. Painted with flocked parts? Using foam for the basic shape.
4. Flock- cork grinds (traditional flock) or nylon (using a static grass machine).
5. Adding sand to the paint by either PVA after or mixing when applying. Brushes are cheap.
6. Drying times. Hence a nice hot day in July. A Saturday? It would be best if everyone can take their artwork home at the days end. Or mums can pick them up at the end of the day?
Can we bash this about a bit to get some sort of rough consensus. It will need to end with a compromise for practical purposes.
Some thoughts.
1. Templates can all be for AK or SCW (scrubby/light in between Europe green and desert yellow) as not many have any templates so far for that project? Do we all have plenty of green and desert?
2. Participants can make 0-24 templates. ie just a social or major enterprise.
3. Consistent scenery might get mixed up thus all pieces need labelling.
4. Agreeing on a colour or colours.
5. Do we want to make lakes/ponds too.
6. Pieces will need to be tough enough to put up with stacking and using. This might mitigate against tufts?
7. Getting a day that suits all is tricky.
8. Folk can make templates for friends too.
9. If successful(?) the exercise can be repeated as a group effort or individually using the recipe used.
10. Do players want to have scenery same as others or should they bring their own tufts, wreckage etc for individuality?
July 20th or 27th?
I can set up plenty of tables and chairs in the garden and supply refreshments.
martin :)
All sounds good Martin, except "gotten"! The word is "obtained". I refuse to be Americanised, or is it Americanated?
I am away for most of July so the 27th is the only date I might be able to make.
John
I'm away in Dorset 19th-28th July with family and friends from Germany. However I have been given special dispensation to come to Weymouth for a day. I doubt it will be a weekend though so probably not much help. I'm fairly sure my mother in law and German friends want to spend the day making templates with us ;D
Quote from: martin goddard on May 22, 2024, 07:23:15 AM1. Templates. Sean might get a huge batch from WARBASES. Rectangles with curved corners?
I'm happy to do this. Once we have a date and firm numbers I can order them. If necessary I could get them sent to Martin direct
2. Paint. This might be a bigger decision. Do we need to be all doing the same thing/colour. Probably , although we could have two production lines.
Paint can be obtained in any colour we like from a paint merchant (B&Q et al). Household paints can be satin or matt. They are also pretty strong.
I like the idea of a consistent colour. Writing our names on the back of the templates is easy enough
3. Hills. Painted with flocked parts? Using foam for the basic shape.
This could be the messy part. If using white polystyrene, it gets everywhere when you cut and sand it. I do have a polystyrene cutter which works well, but I think S and A still sand theirs to get that lovely rounded look.
4. Flock- cork grinds (traditional flock) or nylon (using a static grass machine).
Static grass gets my vote. You dont need a machine as it sticks well to PVA or varnish. I dont think S and A use a machine, but it does look nice if you do use one as it makes the grass stand up.
5. Adding sand to the paint by either PVA after or mixing when applying. Brushes are cheap.
cheap play school style brushes are a good idea
6. Drying times. Hence a nice hot day in July. A Saturday? It would be best if everyone can take their artwork home at the days end. Or mums can pick them up at the end of the day?
Can we bash this about a bit to get some sort of rough consensus. It will need to end with a compromise for practical purposes.
Some thoughts.
1. Templates can all be for AK or SCW (scrubby/light in between Europe green and desert yellow) as not many have any templates so far for that project? Do we all have plenty of green and desert?
A scrubby/dried earth wold look lovely and double for SCW and MexRev too
2. Participants can make 0-24 templates. ie just a social or major enterprise.
If we go by the thought of having 2 of every template availble for each player it might look something 4 each of:
buildings
woods
rough hill
gentle hill
dead ground
rough ground
+ maybe lakes
which comes to 24, plus maybe a lake. Some of these might serve dual purpose. Rough ground could be a wood template with some long grass/sisal bits plonked onto it.
So I think 20-24 templates would give a player a full set. However, if they just want a one player set, then 12 should do it.
We also will likely need partials, but can put our thinking caps on for this.
3. Consistent scenery might get mixed up thus all pieces need labelling.
easy enough to write our names on the bottom
4. Agreeing on a colour or colours.
5. Do we want to make lakes/ponds too.
6. Pieces will need to be tough enough to put up with stacking and using. This might mitigate against tufts?
7. Getting a day that suits all is tricky.
8. Folk can make templates for friends too.
9. If successful(?) the exercise can be repeated as a group effort or individually using the recipe used.
10. Do players want to have scenery same as others or should they bring their own tufts, wreckage etc for individuality?
Of course this is all for mass production. If people want to do their own fancy bits of dead ground or to add tufts and embellishents thats great too!
July 20th or 27th?
I can set up plenty of tables and chairs in the garden and supply refreshments.
martin :)
So I think 20-24 templates per participant for a full set or 12 for a half set. A unified colour means we can buy a large pot of paint. PVA glue, static grass, sand and some white polystyrene sheets should do it.
No worries John.
Apologies for irking you, it was not intended.
Gotten may be used by Americans a lot, but is undoubtedly an English origin word, just diminishing in use.
You will have heard of "ill gotten gains" way back in your childhood?
It is pre United states by a long way.
We should use a wide vocabulary, whether it is common parlance or not.
We should encourage that.
Wargamers vocabulary is often wide due to the multiple texts and precisions they need to use.
martin :)
Thanks for the considered reply Sean. It gives us something to discuss/argue about.
The hill foam I am suggesting is not polystyrene, but the insulation blue/pink stuff. I have a lot of it we can use.
It cuts easily with a handsaw (normal steel long bade). It can then be trimmed with bread knife and finally sanded with a rough grade (80) sander.
Partials is a good thought.
If people like John's 27th July that sounds good.
A nice hot day would be perfect for drying and rapid production (vital).
Marshes, ponds can be done with some paint and gloss varnish. Water effects seem to need too much depth.
Maybe the templates need an initial coat of varnsh to seal them?
That can be done a week before, if numbers are known?
martin :)
I wouldn't worry about the language issue. In the Potteries dialect people use the word street for straight and straight for street. Cost means 'can you'. Cosna means'I cant'. Bo means ball. Bost is 'broken'. Mar is 'my'.
A famous saying in Stoke is...
'Cos kick a bo a gen a wo an yed it back an bost it?'
Language changes all the time. It's a wonderful thing ;D
The mix is paint and sand, mixed to suit.
Miles
How about a mid tan colour with green patches?
What tan colour did les and you use Miles?
Are you out there Les?
Either the tan or green could be expanded to the whole template if painters want.
This gives either tan, green or patched templates.
Is sand textured enough? Sieved builders (rough/sharp) sand?
martin :)
In my experience the better sieved the better. You want just enough to allow a nice dry brushing. If there are too many lumps in it it becomes difficult to put things like trees or other bits on top of the temate as they wobble a bit.
A tan colour is a good idea with static grass patches.
I have a few blanks from S and A so will experiment.
Hi,
A few points from someone who won't be attending (time and cost restraints).
Extruded insulation type foam, I have found it can be shaped with a "Surform" type tool.
Aldi currently have bags of "play sand" in their central aisle, I like play sand because it is clean, and a consistent size. Other toy shops sell it.
Please can you post the paint and flock / tuft colours in advance as I may have my own outlier session.
Thank you and best wishes,
Martin from Grimsby
Thanks Martin
I expect that if it works, we will produce a MILL article and list the recipes used. For better or worse.
Tufts. I was thinking that we see what is available from WARPAINTER and buy a whole bunch with folk paying and choosing their own packs. This allows some players to use loads of tufts as they have chosen and paid for them.
martin :)
Whitby Brown, it was a Crown colour. But it seems to have wiped off their computer. But I did get it re sampled at my local Crown place.
So I can get some more made if needed to ?
Miles
B&Q or Homebase will colour match anything you take into them. If you have a sample of it they scan it into their machine which will mix the paint for you.
Potential painters need to see the colours.
Here is a good selection of colours.
https://joshuaellis.com/products/the-whitby-cashmere-lightweight-stole?variant=40931690021000
I am not suggesting we buy from this site but these pictures are big enough for folk to hold up their figures etc next to the screen.
If we can agree on a colour then we can have paint made to match it.
Once that is done a green can be discussed.
The trick with sand is probably to dry it thoroughly (no moisture at all) then it will sprinkle better.
That does not matter if it is going to be initially mixed into the paint.
https://joshuaellis.com/products/the-whitby-cashmere-lightweight-stole?variant=40931690021000
https://creativebooster.net/blogs/colors/shades-of-tan-color
That should cover all the options?
martin
I tried B and Q but it came out a bit more browner/darker than the original colour. So I went back to Crown and got a far better true looking colour off them.
Miles
That is good Miles
Once we agree a colour we can see what is avaialble.
No colour has been agreed yet.
martin :)
Aha, I can't believe I missed this thread.
I've been eyeing AK47 as an addition to my lead pile for a while now.
I'll express an interest for now, it sounds like a pleasant way to spend the day.
With regard to colour choices etc, I'll defer to you guys. I do have an unholy clutter of scenic odds and ends that could grace templates. Admittedly not great for uniformity.
All the best,
Jim
Chaos is best in Ak47 Jim. The more chaotic the better!
Good idea to create templates. I'll have to see if I can make the date.
Edward