While Martin's been busy sculpting and painting Greeks, I've been combing through version 94 of the draft PBI rules.
Questions to follow below.
Simon
Tanks with guns in sponsons (e.g. Lee/Grant; Char B).
Can one choose whether to shoot with the paid-for turreted gun (no "out of arc" disadvantage) or use the hull gun (possibly with a disadvantage) for each turn and/or shot?
How is the sponson gun arc defined, as it should probably be different from that of a "fire ahead" tank destroyer that is implied in the illustrations on page 96? Should we rotate the "S" in the two assault gun shooting arc diagrams anti-clockwise by 45 degrees in such cases?
Simon
ANSWER
Treat it as an assault gun for simplicity.
Towed guns are typically treated when targeted either (when deployed) as a foot base or (when hit hitched up) as a softskin transport. But often the "towed guns" term is used for both.
Is it worth defining the two possible states of a towed gun and using one or other term throughout? We could for example have "deployed towed gun" and "gun being towed".
Simon
ANSWER
New terms. "Gun moving". "Gun deployed". That should work?
What is the logic behind removing all light damage markers after an assault? This at first appears counter-intuitive (i.e. launch yourself into a fight to fix your vehicle) and might merit a "designer's notes" kind of explanation.
Simon
ANSWER
An assault situation galvanises men. Do or die.
If I've read things correctly (and this is the area I'm struggling with most), a light mortar can be rather more dangerous than a tank HE shot.
The former inflicts 2D6 of damage on each infantry base within a square, whereas the tank can at best (if it has an HE of 3, which is quite rare) inflict a total of 3 hits on 3 separate bases.
Have I read this correctly? If so, can we include the rationale for it, please?
Simon
ANSWER
A light mortar gets 2D6 per target base. Thus, it is better when there are lots of bases in the square. The light mortar needs 6 to hit which gives 1/3 chance of getting a hit (2 tries at 6 with 2D6) . The target base will usually save on either 2,3,4,5,6 (in cover or taking cover) or 3,4,5,6 (in partial and moving).
The gun HE once a hit is achieved needs 3,4,5,6 to save. The two hits are guaranteed once the big shot is successful.
A typical(?) HE. Average tank shoots twice. Target foot in a building. Needs 10,11,12 to hit (1/6 probability. Better if closer/veteran).
To kill needs1,2.
Tank. Overall 2 gun shots. 1/3 prob of hits,1/3 prob of no save= 1/9 prob of kill.
Light mortar. One shot. 2/3 prob of hitting square. 1/3 prob of hit. Assume 3 target bases. = 1/9 kill in closed, 2/9 kill in partial.
Light mortar same effect as tank at 3 base occupied building. Better than tank at foot bases in partial.
This is fine.
Foot hit by off-table HE: I remember this coming up in one of our PBI days - saves are stated to be "normal saves but no short-range modifiers". This is ambiguous, as "normal saves" could be taken to be either those from foot shooting (basic save of 4, 5, 6; benefits if PC or in cover) or the standard "save on a 3, 4, 5, 6" from on-table HE.
I think it's the latter, but in that case why exclude short-range modifiers?
Can you please confirm, Martin?
Simon
ANSWER
It is the same as being hit by small shooting. This means most save on 2,3,4,5,6 if in cover but only save on 4,5,6 in the open. This makes HE very dangerous if in the open but not so much if in cover.
Off-table HE (page 101) allows occupants of destroyed transports to save on a 4,5,6. What does the "non-attributed" qualifier mean?
Simon
ANSWER
Target can choose who dies.
When adjudicating who has won a fight (page 105) towed guns count as two casualties if they fail to save.
Presumably these are guns still being towed, since any deployed gun that receives a hit is killed instantly, with no opportunity to save?
That said, the "Vehicle saves if hit in assault" section on page 108 states that hits are never placed on transports or towed guns. Which appears to contradict page 105?
Simon
ANSWER
This is very confusing.
We need simplicity.
I suggest that towed guns count as foot base weapon team ( ie -1 in fight) whether moving or deployed.
This also means they only count as 1 dead if killed.
AC and tanks still cont as 2 kills.
The table on page 18 appears ambiguous in terms of the number and composition of "extra" bases in support platoons.
With the newly-defined (?) maximum of 7 bases, I understand that such a platoon could take just 2 MMGs or mortars and thus top up the total to 7 bases with up to 4 infantry bases (i.e. not just 2 foot bases, as in the current version of the rules). Do I have that right?
If so, how many of these 4 bases could be SMG or LMG? The note at the bottom of the table refers to the second base being either, but I believe this to be in the context of the former limit of just 2 extra bases.
Simon
ANSWER
For simplicity let us say that all support platoons can be made up to 7 bases with rifles bases only. Get rid of any other options.
Page 21: mortar bases or the mortar PC must be able to see the target. Does this mean that a normal infantry PC cannot spot for light mortars?
Simon
ANSWER
The only PC that can spot is the PC of a support platoon. This PC can only spot for medium mortars.
Page 21: medium mortars need to set up before being able to shoot. At the start of a game, can the defender's mortars be deemed already set up? Can the attacker's too?
Simon
ANSWER
Defender can have any or all weapons set up.
Attacker can have no weapons set up.
How many Panzerfäuste can a late war German player take, and on what basis?
Page 25 states a maximum of 4 per platoon, on the basis of up to 1 per rifle, SMG or AR base - which I think is correct.
However, the table on page 11 states "one per rifle base" (up to the same limit of 4 / platoon).
Simon
ANSWER
Each platoon can buy up to 4.
They can only be shot by SMG, rifle or assault rifle bases.
Only 1 per turn per square may be shot. This applies to opportunity shooting too.
e.g . A square containing 3 German rifle bases can shoot 1 pzfauste in their turn. One of the bases(even the same one) could move to a different square and shoot a second time. Another of the bases could move to a further new square ad shoot a third time.
This means that riflemen can scatter and shoot but not shoot them all from a single square.
This also prevents a passing tanks suffering 4 pzfst opportunity shots.
The limit of 4 should also encourage players to use them carefully.
We have a turn sequence of 10 steps (e.g. page 70). However, "remove foot platoon" has been added to the Company Commander's step 2.
Is it worth breaking out the foot platoon removal into its own step, so that it's not forgotten in the heat of the battle?
Simon
ANSWER
I think it is rare enough to be given minor mention.
Rotational symmetry explanation to define line of sight (page 79).
I do understand what rotational symmetry is, but I still really don't follow the explanation of how this helps define line of sight to a target. Nor do I understand the reference to the extremity of the shooter's arc in this context.
I do understand a "straight line between square centres, as long as the line is not interrupted by a corner of blocking terrain on both sides of it, or crosses any blocking terrain" type of explanation.
Is this me being thick?
Simon
ANSWER
The rational symmetry was an attempt at an all encompassing elegance. It has failed. The line of sight is from shooter centre to target centre . If on that line any second corner of building, hill,wood are touched the shot stops.
This will lead to all sorts of arguments about who can see what. I need to go away and think how to simplify this.
Page 65 says that any pair, trio or more of vehicles or guns (same type) in the same square allow for an AP re-roll, even if not from the same unit.
However, page 90 explicitly states that the vehicles or deployed guns must be from the same unit.
Which is it, please?
Simon
ANSWER
err..
When two or more tanks/towed guns/transports/AC from the SAME unit are in the SAME Square their AP is determined by the usual 2D6 but they all share that same result. This 2D6 may be re-rolled (a benefit of being together).
I read the table on page 68 as saying that an MMG can fire up to 3 times at a foot target, but just twice at a vehicle. Can it target both (which would presumably need to be in the same target square) in the same turn? If so, can it apply 2 shots to foot and one to a vehicle?
Simon
ANSWER
If the MMG carries out big shooting it is limited to 2. Just like tank and mortar big shooting. Small shooting MMG is allowed 3 shots. No mixing of Big and small shooting.
Page 29 says that transports cannot be hit by on-table mortars. Presumably this means that any motorised infantry on said transports are similarly immune to mortar fire?
Simon
ANSWER
Yes, no vehicles (and anything in/on them) can be mortar targets.
Page 32 refers to transports with AT. In what circumstances can transport vehicles have any anti-tank weapons?
Simon
ANSWER
It is inly for the Hannomag with 37mm PAK gun. WW2 is too complicated.
Page 37: for the avoidance of doubt, a CC who has been attached to one PC cannot in the same turn be picked up and dragged away by a subsequent PC, I think?
Simon
ANSWER
Good one. How about we add in "CC must declare which PC he will attach to permanently for the current turn". The CC can only do this after doing his own movement. That nominated PC can drop the CC off but not pick one up. The bond is made at the ned of the CC movement. It can only be broken by the PC.
Page 38: can casualty markers be removed by a platoon other than that from which the casualties originated, as long as this other platoon is in the same square as the casualty?
Simon
ANSWER
Any foot AP can be used to remove any casualty marker. AP must be spent in the casualty square.
Page 47: building must overlap one road square: I think this is "one and only one"?
Simon
ANSWER
One square overlapping road and one square not overlapping road. No other layout allowed.
Page 53: do I read it right that the Dug In asset applies to a single square each time it is used (i.e. not to a 2-square template or other pair of squares)?
Simon
ANSWER
This is under playtest. But will now cover two next door squares. Those squares will now count as building for assault and big/small shooting. The dug in cannot overlap gully or marsh. It can overlap two different scenery types.
Page 55 states that a sniper may shoot at a vehicle. What is the mechanism for him to damage and/or kill a vehicle?
Simon
ANSWER
Shall we change that to . Can only shoot at foot bases. (not deployed guns)
Page 60 states (reading it literally) that the smoke retention roll changes from 5,6 to 4,5,6 if any square has 2 smoke in the same square or a smoke in two adjacent squares. I think this enhanced roll should only apply to those specific squares to which these conditions apply?
Simon
ANSWER
Smoke stays on 4,5,6 if own side smoke in face or same square.
Smoke stays on 5,6 in all other cases.
Page 65 implies that we need to keep track (until the foot bases dismount) of which vehicle is carrying the PC, since he must be in the arrival square. This is at odds with the "decide when you debus" principle elsewhere.
Have I read this right?
Simon
ANSWER
Tricky one. Shall we say that all transports and vehicles must all arrive in same square. Only foot bases can do the left/right spread?
Gosh Simon, you've been busy! 😂
Quote from: Sean Clark on April 17, 2024, 07:26:35 AMGosh Simon, you've been busy! 😂
Well I've been sitting on the master copy for some weeks now. I finally got to the end last night and needed some clarification on a few points. I thought it would be helpful for the other playtesters to see the answers in due course - I think we're often guilty of playing to what we believe is written rather than what is currently written :)
And I do have a bit of a bugbear with tank HE which - if I've got this right - seems rather weak compared to mortars. So I thought that might provoke a lively discussion - or encourage me to get back in my box ;D
Simon
Great work Simon.
I've queried rotational symmetry previously. Have studied the explanations for longer than is good for my sanity and just don't get it.
I'd ditch the symmetry copy and just talk about centre square to centre square. When in doubt i use my mark one piece of string to check.
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:30:58 PMFoot hit by off-table HE: I remember this coming up in one of our PBI days - saves are stated to be "normal saves but no short-range modifiers". This is ambiguous, as "normal saves" could be taken to be either those from foot shooting (basic save of 4, 5, 6; benefits if PC or in cover) or the standard "save on a 3, 4, 5, 6" from on-table HE.
I think it's the latter, but in that case why exclude short-range modifiers?
Can you please confirm, Martin?
Simon
Ive always applied the small shooting save modifiers to hits from off-table HE.
I think your reference to ontable HE saves relates to big gun shooting, not indirect mortars?
Offtable HE hits bases moving in the open currently save on 4+. Switching to the HE big gun on table save which is always 2+ would make it harder to kill troops in open from off table HE.
The way i think about this difference is that big gun HE is a few aimed shots ata known target. Off table (and ontable) HE is many indirect shots spread over a square.
And thinking why a tank HE shell us less effective then indirect when target is in the open i consider this to be due to men being harder to hit with direct fire buildings.
This does mean there are two save mechanics for players to remember. Which isn't as good as just one.
Well done Mr Pedantic Simon! The rules need this scrutiny as Martin's enthusiasm often outpaces his written clarification (which is good otherwise the rules would never be completed).
On the sponson guns, I would lump them in with assault guns simply on the basis that there are so few tanks that have sponsons.
On towed guns in assaults surely you wouldn't take a gun into an assault you'd unhitch it and fire it before the assault. The defenders with an unhitched gun should get a shot in here they come firing and then have the crew fight as an infantry base. If a towed gun is overrun then it is destroyed. That is what my logic is telling me , but what do I know?
John
Quote from: John Watson on April 17, 2024, 09:55:48 AMWell done Mr Pedantic Simon! The rules need this scrutiny as Martin's enthusiasm often outpaces his written clarification (which is good otherwise the rules would never be completed).
On the sponson guns, I would lump them in with assault guns simply on the basis that there are so few tanks that have sponsons.
On towed guns in assaults surely you wouldn't take a gun into an assault you'd unhitch it and fire it before the assault. The defenders with an unhitched gun should get a shot in here they come firing and then have the crew fight as an infantry base. If a towed gun is overrun then it is destroyed. That is what my logic is telling me , but what do I know?
John
Thanks John, although I think that may quite possibly be the first time I've seen "pedantic" used in a vaguely positive (?) context :D
Part of this is me playing devil's advocate with what I believe is actually written currently, to iron out any ambiguity and hopefully make it easier for new players in particular to pick up, since they've not had the benefit of playtesting over what is now several years (for this "Covid edition") for many of us. As well as for myself when I don't play for a few months and need to remind myself what's what!
Simon
Fantastic work Simon. John is correct.
It is good to do the work on here so that all can see what goes on.
I will go back and edit each of your notes with an answer added. Hope that works......
Good job Simon.
martin :)
Thanks Martin. The idea of the blast of many individual topics was to help with the responses ;)
Simon
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:23:02 PMWhat is the logic behind removing all light damage markers after an assault? This at first appears counter-intuitive (i.e. launch yourself into a fight to fix your vehicle) and might merit a "designer's notes" kind of explanation.
Simon
ANSWER
An assault situation galvanises men. Do or die.
Thanks Martin, but how does the men being galvanised fix their broken tank?
Simon
Hope these sound reasonable everyone??
martin :)
The tanks are not broken in any way but paused. Shock, panic, consternation?
Light damage might need to be replaced by a better term. Shock has been used by other rules. Consternation sounds too pretentious. Flinch. A new word? Kerwam?
I quite like "recoil" or "stunned".
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on April 17, 2024, 11:50:24 AMThe tanks are not broken in any way but paused. Shock, panic, consternation?
Light damage might need to be replaced by a better term. Shock has been used by other rules. Consternation sounds too pretentious. Flinch. A new word? Kerwam?
I quite like "recoil" or "stunned".
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on April 17, 2024, 11:50:24 AMThe tanks are not broken in any way but paused. Shock, panic, consternation?
Light damage might need to be replaced by a better term. Shock has been used by other rules. Consternation sounds too pretentious. Flinch. A new word? Kerwam?
I quite like "recoil" or "stunned".
martin :)
Of the above, I quite like "stunned". A bit like we had "Hammered" (could this be an alternative?) in Vietnam. Maybe "dazed", or "shaken"?
I had certainly been equating "light damage" with some level of damage that would need fixing ::)
Simon
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:48:17 PMHow many Panzerfäuste can a late war German player take, and on what basis?
Page 25 states a maximum of 4 per platoon, on the basis of up to 1 per rifle, SMG or AR base - which I think is correct.
However, the table on page 11 states "one per rifle base" (up to the same limit of 4 / platoon).
Simon
ANSWER
Each platoon can buy up to 4.
They can only be shot by SMG, rifle or assault rifle bases.
Only 1 per turn per square may be shot. This applies to opportunity shooting too.
e.g . A square containing 3 German rifle bases can shoot 1 pzfauste in their turn. One of the bases(even the same one) could move to a different square and shoot a second time. Another of the bases could move to a further new square ad shoot a third time.
This means that riflemen can scatter and shoot but not shoot them all from a single square.
This also prevents a passing tanks suffering 4 pzfst opportunity shots.
The limit of 4 should also encourage players to use them carefully.
At the risk of being pedantic (John will be pleased ;) ), being able to be
shot by rifle / SMG / AR is not the same as being able to
buy 4 on the basis of the numbers of said bases.
Do I take it that 4 can be bought as long as there are 4 or more rifle / SMG / AR bases in the platoon in the first place?
Simon
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:42:00 PMThe table on page 18 appears ambiguous in terms of the number and composition of "extra" bases in support platoons.
With the newly-defined (?) maximum of 7 bases, I understand that such a platoon could take just 2 MMGs or mortars and thus top up the total to 7 bases with up to 4 infantry bases (i.e. not just 2 foot bases, as in the current version of the rules). Do I have that right?
If so, how many of these 4 bases could be SMG or LMG? The note at the bottom of the table refers to the second base being either, but I believe this to be in the context of the former limit of just 2 extra bases.
Simon
ANSWER
For simplicity let us say that all support platoons can be made up to 7 bases with rifles bases only. Get rid of any other options.
I like this ruling, thank you - it avoids the temptation of turning a mortar platoon into a mini assault platoon!
Mind you, I'll now need to paint up more rifle bases :)
Simon
More simplifications are sought.
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on April 17, 2024, 12:54:18 PMMore simplifications are sought.
martin :)
I'm gearing up for some slash-and-burn on the edits :)
Simon
While I agree with making all "extras" rifles it may impact cheap companies that use "extra" LMGs to boost points totals. We'll have to see how that works.
For the vehicles in assaults how about "battered" or "embattled".
John (the dogmatic)
HE hits. I do like the 2,3,4 hits system.
May be a way to answer this is with on/off table HE it drops down on you, so really no where to hide ? It goes up the curves and falls down.
Tank HE is fired on a level. So if it hits it will hit an area in front? to the side? But rarely directly hit I would imagine? So Martin has put in an automatic hit n miss system to cope with this ! It's not great be fair overall ?
Looking at this in this way sort of answers my own question, when you set up a Sherman to fire on table like a mortar ? Up and over then hits will then correspond with indirect on/off table artillery?
Miles
Quote from: Smiley Miley 66 on April 17, 2024, 02:01:37 PMHE hits. I do like the 2,3,4 hits system.
May be a way to answer this is with on/off table HE it drops down on you, so really no where to hide ? It goes up the curves and falls down.
Tank HE is fired on a level. So if it hits it will hit an area in front? to the side? But rarely directly hit I would imagine? So Martin has put in an automatic hit n miss system to cope with this ! It's not great be fair overall ?
Looking at this in this way sort of answers my own question, when you set up a Sherman to fire on table like a mortar ? Up and over then hits will then correspond with indirect on/off table artillery?
Miles
OK, so it's the less effective trajectory of a tank firing a bigger round that makes it less good? I can live with that, thanks Miles.
Simon
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 17, 2024, 12:07:31 PMQuote from: martin goddard on April 17, 2024, 11:50:24 AMThe tanks are not broken in any way but paused. Shock, panic, consternation?
Light damage might need to be replaced by a better term. Shock has been used by other rules. Consternation sounds too pretentious. Flinch. A new word? Kerwam?
I quite like "recoil" or "stunned".
martin :)
Quote from: martin goddard on April 17, 2024, 11:50:24 AMThe tanks are not broken in any way but paused. Shock, panic, consternation?
Light damage might need to be replaced by a better term. Shock has been used by other rules. Consternation sounds too pretentious. Flinch. A new word? Kerwam?
I quite like "recoil" or "stunned".
martin :)
Of the above, I quite like "stunned". A bit like we had "Hammered" (could this be an alternative?) in Vietnam. Maybe "dazed", or "shaken"?
I had certainly been equating "light damage" with some level of damage that would need fixing ::)
Simon
What happened to 'rattled' which was in earlier versions?
"Spalled" is a good word.
Best wishes,
Martin from Grimsby
"Spalled" does imply some fragmentation though...
I do like rattled (shaken not stirred? ;D ) - I'd forgotten about that.
Simon
Martin - there are still 10 posts from my initial blast of comments below that are yet to receive answers. No hurry, but just checking you hadn't missed them ;)
Simon
I will go back and find them. Good prod.
martin :)
Thanks Martin. I don't blame you for taking a couple of days off after that first flurry :D
Simon
I havea also communicated some other thoughts to Simon, which I think we all like(???)
1. Vehicles can only cut diagonally between two corners if both of the squares have no enemy in them. Any enemy = no cut through.
2. How about we use the 350 (340 now) point option to replace the non conformist option? =4 to assets. Reinforcement 6D6. Simpler.
3. PzFausts. allowed 4 per foot platoon. Not for support platoons. One can be shot from a square in an own or opponent turn.
4. Placing of asset HE. Only One needs to be on seen enemy. The second can be speculative.???(not sure)
5. CC cannot take part in surprise asset. Weapon teams are set up(optional) after using surprise asset.
martin :)
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 17, 2024, 12:17:17 AMPage 65 implies that we need to keep track (until the foot bases dismuont) of which vehicle is carrying the PC, since he must be in the arrival square. This is at odds with the "decide when you debus" principle elsewhere.
Have I read this right?
Simon
ANSWER
Tricky one. Shall we say that all transports and vehicles must all arrive in same square. Only foot bases can do the left/right spread?
I think that makes a lot of sense. The units are small and vehicles typically travel in convoy when on the move, I believe?
Tanks can switch to line abreast and charge once they are on the table :)
Simon
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 17, 2024, 12:06:22 AMPage 32 refers to transports with AT. In what circumstances can transport vehicles have any anti-tank weapons?
Simon
ANSWER
It is inly for the Hannomag with 37mm PAK gun. WW2 is too complicated.
Thanks Martin. How many points are we going to say that one of these costs?
And does it get two free shots per turn once its occupants have debussed, or maybe just the one shot?
Simon
Simon
The more I think about this, the trickier it gets.
1. Do we ban the SdKfz 351/10 altogether?
- we German players might cry foul ;)
2. Do we allow it, but not as a transport?
- in that case it would need to be grouped in a unit with other vehicles, but it's neither a tank nor a wheeled armoured car...
3. Do we just treat it as an MG-armed transport?
- refer to point (1) above...
4. Do we have a special rule for this vehicle?
- a little more PBI complexity...
In mitigation for option (4), I'd again offer up the idea that all wheeled transports are unarmoured without an MG, and all tracked transport is armoured with an MG (non-armed armoured transport seem to me like a bit of a cheap cheat...).
Have I sprinkled enough controversy within the above? ;D
Simon
Sorry, even more thoughts...
We of course have the SdKfz 251/16 (flamethrowers) and SdKfz 251/11 (rocket launchers).
And then on the Allied side - albeit not as transports - there are the Sherman Calliope and Russian Katyusha.
It could all get a bit silly if we cater for every such special vehicle?
Simon
I don't think excluding The german halftrack with 37mm ATG from rules is right way to go. They were in the motorised company TO&E and not rare or exceptional.
When I've encountered them in a game we've followed the tankriders rule. Treated the vehicle in same way as q
But for new PBI it is better to keep the treatment of a transport than can do big shooting as consistent with the approach for transports generally. So....
After foot bases disembarked no dice rolled for action points.
Fire main gun once or mg twice. With the range restrictions as for other transports.
Only shoot when in proximity of own foot.
Id add that the PC has to be in this vehicle coz it was the command one. Tbh I'd play it that way whether there was a rule or not as it was how it was. (Im the same with light mortars which didn't carry smoke rounds. Never fire smoke with them even though rules allow 😀)
I don't see the problem. They are already in the CA under armoured vehicles, costing transport plus extra points for the weaponry. Or have I missed something?
John
Quote from: John Watson on April 20, 2024, 12:42:12 PMI don't see the problem. They are already in the CA under armoured vehicles, costing transport plus extra points for the weaponry. Or have I missed something?
John
I think so, John, as the mechanisms for unit-grouping and playing with transports and pointed armoured vehicles are quite different.
Either way, the rules don't currently specify how this should all work :)
Simon
Don't forget the M3 half tracks had AA guns, multiple.50 cal Mg, and also 37mm and .50cal combination turret, also 57mm/75mm and 105mm guns carried on them for various infantry and armoured car supports. As used by the Americans, Russians and British in Mediterranean, Pacific, Russia and Europe.
Miles
Quote from: Smiley Miley 66 on April 20, 2024, 02:44:35 PMDon't forget the M3 half tracks had AA guns, multiple.50 cal Mg, and also 37mm and .50cal combination turret, also 57mm/75mm and 105mm guns carried on them for various infantry and armoured car supports. As used by the Americans, Russians and British in Mediterranean, Pacific, Russia and Europe.
Miles
Miles I think the difference here is that we already have rules for tracked guns and AA.
However, the 37mm-armed M3 might be in a very similar category to the SdKfz 251/10. I don't know how common the former were, but Nigel makes some good points about the SdKfz 251/10.
Simon
I think we can make a rule just for this vehicle. I don't like this sort of thing but that is the way of WW2. It needs to be mostly like other transports.
1. Can shoot with gun once per turn. No AP cost. That is the sole action.
2. No MG effect. Can only shoot when not carrying bases.
3. Moves like other transports. 1 square per turn.
4. Always average.
5. Can shoot and move
6. No opportunity shooting.
7. Cost at 20 points. No variation.
8. Maximum of 1 per foot platoon. Not allowed for support platoons.
9. Can still carry up to 4 bases. PC does not have to be in this vehicle.
martin :)
I will exclude calliope, nebelwerfer, aircraft and rockets from PBI.
They are too inaccurate (area blasters) to be deployed by an infantry company in close fighting.
They could be used pre game if anyone wants to make up some special rules.
martin :)
What about Universal Carriers as well. Can be bren only, or have added HMG, mortar, Boyes a/t rifle or 2pdr a/t/gun. Should these be included in the discussions?
I would have thought that if being used as transports then stick to unarmed or lmg only for soft skins, lmg or mag for armoured carriers (hanomags, M3 or M5, universal carriers, amtrax etc). If it had anything more than that then pay for the weapon as well but treat it as having a lmg/mmg option (similar to tanks).
John
Quote from: martin goddard on April 20, 2024, 05:45:15 PMI think we can make a rule just for this vehicle. I don't like this sort of thing but that is the way of WW2. It needs to be mostly like other transports.
1. Can shoot with gun once per turn. No AP cost. That is the sole action.
2. No MG effect. Can only shoot when not carrying bases.
3. Moves like other transports. 1 square per turn.
4. Always average.
5. Can shoot and move
6. No opportunity shooting.
7. Cost at 20 points. No variation.
8. Maximum of 1 per foot platoon. Not allowed for support platoons.
9. Can still carry up to 4 bases. PC does not have to be in this vehicle.
martin :)
Sounds good, Martin, thanks.
Nigel may have something to say about the PC not needing to be in it, of course :)
Simon
Bren carriers are treated as any other transports.
For aesthetics I suggest two models on a base to count as one transport.
Medium mortars, MMG etc. makes them part of a support platoon.
I really don't want a lot of rules just for universal carriers.
WW2 is very complex but PBI must bring them down to a playable level rather than a big book full of endless detail that makes the game not worth playing.
At least 150 specialist vehicles and circumstances will be left out deliberately.
martin :)
I agree so why is the 251 needing special rules?
John
Good point John.
The 37mm half track is a fixed part of German motorised infantry throughout the war and not an option for them.
It would be easier to leave it out but it would be noticeable.
There are some other simplifications that can be achieved, which I am looking into.
martin :)
"Nigel may have something to say about the PC not needing to be in it, of course :)"
Nope. Other than there's nowt to stop a player deciding to always put a PC in the command vehicle. Don't need a written rule to force the player to do that. Personally I'd put the PC in the 251/10. But I won't judge anyone who chooses different 😀. Guess if I was the PC I could go in any vehicle I chose.
You are a fair and honest man, Nigel :)
Simon
Restrictions are put into PBI only to stop players abusing the game spirit.
The word "max" must appear many times.
If all players were reasonable like Nigel then I can delete 40 pages.
Unfortunately the 13% who are unreasonable need to be "restrained" for the sake of the many.
martin ???
In Battlegroup rules, the 37mm gun is treated as a "base" in the Hanomag ?
So this might be the way around it ? Especially in how much room it needs?
Normally they carry a Squad of 5 plus MG squad and the carrier crew.
But Sdkfz 251/10 carriers a Squad of 6, then the carrier crew including the gun.
I know this is another set of rules, but it's their way of getting around the gun being on the carrier ?
But if you said the "gun" uses one or two bases space ? It could then use the gun in support as it was intended?(this would never be able to dismount as it is part of the carrier vehicle ) Also be able to carry possibly the PC base and another base? ( in reality PC and his runners, but in PBI probably a rifle base? )
It's only a thought ?
Miles
I would think that a 1/2 track with a gun is just that, a Gun armed 1/2 track.which is already covered in the rules.
Motivates like any other armoured car/tank and is paid for as cost in the architect
I don't think A 1/2 track with a gun, crew and ammo would have room for passengers
Stewart
Totally agree with you Stewart. Unless it is a double decker, but I haven't seen any photographic evidence.
John
I approve of the KISS method. Keep it simple, silly!
Obviously some people haven't heard of the Hanomag, platoon commander vehicle with a mounted 37mm or 28mm gun ? Here are a few pictures just to show what is being talked about ?
Miles
(https://i.postimg.cc/4YcL9LY0/IMG-1332.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4YcL9LY0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TyqtkKqq/IMG-1333.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TyqtkKqq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3zPQ7fZ/IMG-1334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3zPQ7fZ)
i will keep it simple.
It is a normal transport with a gun too.
No special rules about capacity.
As with other transports it will not need motivating after the men get out.
It can shoot every turn as detailed earlier.
Anyone tries it out, let me know how it goes for you.
martin :)
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:18:54 PMTanks with guns in sponsons (e.g. Lee/Grant; Char B).
Can one choose whether to shoot with the paid-for turreted gun (no "out of arc" disadvantage) or use the hull gun (possibly with a disadvantage) for each turn and/or shot?
How is the sponson gun arc defined, as it should probably be different from that of a "fire ahead" tank destroyer that is implied in the illustrations on page 96? Should we rotate the "S" in the two assault gun shooting arc diagrams anti-clockwise by 45 degrees in such cases?
Simon
ANSWER
Treat it as an assault gun for simplicity.
Martin,
Sorry for coming back to this again. However, if we treat a tank with a gun in a sponson as an assault gun, why do we cost it differently (i.e. as normal turreted tank +7 points)?
Would it not be simpler to cost it as an assault gun, based on the size of the sponson gun?
Simon
ANSWER
I will give this a think today.
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 16, 2024, 11:32:37 PMOff-table HE (page 101) allows occupants of destroyed transports to save on a 4,5,6. What does the "non-attributed" qualifier mean?
Simon
ANSWER
Target can choose who dies.
Martin,
So to be clear - a number of dice (matching the number of transported foot bases) are rolled. Any "kills" (i.e. on a 1, 2, 3) are allocated to the bases as the owner wishes?
Simon
ANSWER Yes
Page 22 (well it is now - it may have started off as 20 or 21...) states that medium mortars can only move if they first take down or are pushed back by an assault or flamethrower attack. In the latter two cases, shouldn't the tubes be lost (and the base therefore effectively eliminated) as the crew would be too busy running away to stop and bring the mortar with them?
Simon
ANSWER
For simplicity they take their mortars with them. I don't want re graded bases .
Or does a Lee tank count as any other turreted tank with a poor turret condition, hence the -7 on the points score.
John
Quote from: John Watson on May 01, 2024, 11:20:30 PMOr does a Lee tank count as any other turreted tank with a poor turret condition, hence the -7 on the points score.
John
John,
Martin's already ruled (earlier post in this thread) that we count a Lee etc. as an assault gun.
It was while wrapping all these things into the rules that the thought struck me...
Simon
ANSWER
I will make the solution very simple because it is a rare occurrence. mainly Lee and char B. rare.
My Lee/Grant tanks have arrived so following with interest.
If im hearing correctly, they are gun 12, armour 10 invulnerable to satchel charges and panzerfausts. Nice!
AND with their extra height, they can see over woods. Very useful
martin :)
Two gun tanks
The hull gun counts as assault gun arc.
The turret on top is a normal 360' gun.
Pay average cost of the two guns. Round any half points down (ignore them).
e.g. Grant. Two guns. 7 and 6. Armour 6= 19 + 12=31 If it only had a gun 7, cost would be 33.
We have to make sure there are no tanks that can abuse this rule. I think we are OK?
T35, Char B, Lee/grant . Others ?
I do not think any tanks has vastly different guns such as 10/4?
martin :)
Makes it 1 point more than the current average version, so no real change. It also loses the poor turret ruling it had before, not that I've ever used that. T28 is also a multi turreted tank.
John
Quote from: martin goddard on May 02, 2024, 09:45:16 AMTwo gun tanks
The hull gun counts as assault gun arc.
The turret on top is a normal 360' gun.
Pay average cost of the two guns. Round any half points down (ignore them).
e.g. Grant. Two guns. 7 and 6. Armour 6= 19 + 12=31 If it only had a gun 7, cost would be 33.
We have to make sure there are no tanks that can abuse this rule. I think we are OK?
T35, Char B, Lee/grant . Others ?
I do not think any tanks has vastly different guns such as 10/4?
martin :)
Thanks Martin - I'll update things accordingly.
Are we going to allow both guns to shoot in the same turn (e.g. one shot big gun and the second with the smaller turreted one)? What about return / opportunity fire in the opponent's turn vs. "paid-for" shooting in the owner's turn?
Sorry to keep asking questions, but if there's a loophole, someone's bound to find it in due course!
Simon
Good point Simon.
Thanks for being thorough.
Maybe change the wording to something like " a vehicle is allowed 1 big shot as opportunity in the opponent turn." ????
martin :)
What about the Russian multi turreted tanks, T35 and T28?
Best wishes,
Martin from Grimsby
They are strange tanks indeed.
I suggest that they are treated as a tank with single all round turret.
If players want the effect of the multiple guns they can pay for it as 2 tanks sharing one body. This would allow players more shots, as the 2D6 applies to both "tanks". Downside is that it only has one body.
Alternatively, the player can pay for it as a single tank with a single turret.
The tank would be expensive (cost as 2 tanks) but a great gun platform.
Can it be a super tank? No. It was a very poor tank.
martin :)
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on April 17, 2024, 12:11:53 AMPage 53: do I read it right that the Dug In asset applies to a single square each time it is used (i.e. not to a 2-square template or other pair of squares)?
Simon
ANSWER
This is under playtest. But will now cover two next door squares. Those squares will now count as building for assault and big/small shooting. The dug in cannot overlap gully or marsh. It can overlap two different scenery types.
Martin,
Coming back to this, your email of 25th April referred to the pair of dug-in squares having to be either a single hill template or a pair of non-templated squares.
However, it's struck me that it's now no longer possible to dig in on the crossroads objective, which I think was previously the prime candidate for digging in on!
Thoughts, please?
Simon
No problem.
Just make the wording a single template etc..
Maybe better to list what it can be. The road junction template, a hill template or a pair of non templated squares. that hsould cover it.
martin :)
Thanks, Martin.
It shall be so ;)
Simon
Sorry, Martin, another one.
We currently say that if a dug-in is imposed on a road square, the road in that square no longer exists. This works for non-templated squares with roads, but do we want this also to apply to the road junction objective?
Would it be easier to remove the disappearing road clause altogether?
Simon
Also, foot shooting "shots are part of a hail" (under "Shooting") - what does this mean, please?
Simon
Thanks for keeping going Simon. A long task.
The "hail" is about small shooting being lots of shots but big shooting being one or two.
The road deleted should keep it simple for gamers. Along the lines of "if I can drive through it easily why can't I assault it easily?" Dug in on roads might include barriers/blockages too.
martin :)
Thanks Martin, I'm getting there on this round of revisions. It's been a matter of finding new things as I update earlier clarifications :)
Simon
Quote from: martin goddard on April 20, 2024, 05:45:15 PMI think we can make a rule just for this vehicle. I don't like this sort of thing but that is the way of WW2. It needs to be mostly like other transports.
1. Can shoot with gun once per turn. No AP cost. That is the sole action.
2. No MG effect. Can only shoot when not carrying bases.
3. Moves like other transports. 1 square per turn.
4. Always average.
5. Can shoot and move
6. No opportunity shooting.
7. Cost at 20 points. No variation.
8. Maximum of 1 per foot platoon. Not allowed for support platoons.
9. Can still carry up to 4 bases. PC does not have to be in this vehicle.
martin :)
Coming back to point #2 above: What is the rationale for the 37mm gun not firing when it's carrying troops (especially as mounted MGs in the rest of the platoon can fire), please, Martin?
Simon
Saving from off-table HE: currently guns on tow save as per armoured transport.
However, everywhere else towed guns are treated as their (softskin) prime movers, so this seems something of an anomaly.
Can I suggest that guns on tow die as wheeled transport would?
Simon
Hello Simon
The 37mm half track. The 2D6 for transports needs to be kept clear of "can i shoot my gun?".
The half track is too crowded to use the gun and carry men.
This simplification is no great problem for transport users as most men get out in their arrival turn 1 and only very few instances of waiting for a second turn.
I agree that guns being towed should save as wheeled transport.
martin :)
Thanks for the 37mm gun explanation, Martin, and I'll tweak the towed gun saves.
Simon
Excellent
martin :)
Martin,
I've just sent it all back to you - good luck!
Simon