Hi all,
I saw some pictures of your great RCW game day, so I fancied giving Square bashing a go for some RCW games. I have the army book now, and the rules are in the post. Flicking through the lists I see that the RCW Red Shock Army is missing the numbers for the Tanks and Light AC. Is there an errata or can someone tell me what these value should be?
Thanks
As far as I am aware the Red faction didn't have/use tanks so there are none in the list.
The White faction had access to British tanks, and armoured cars and some French?
The Poles had French ones.
I believe that a number of the British-supplied tanks were captured and used by the Reds. Whether their number was significant enough to merit inclusion in the army list is, of course, another matter!
Simon
Hello Trev
Good to see some RCW action. Great period.
The values are zero.
martin :)
Hello Trev,
I the last issue of "the Mill" (n°17) I penned an article listing all the AFVs historicaly available for each factions of the Square Bashing Army book.
Hope it helps...
Pierre
Hi all,
Thanks for the responses and pointer to the article. I probably don't understand the game side of things yet but I would say there is plenty of evidence for the use of armoured Trains, Cars and Tanks by the Reds in the RCW. So I might want to add some for scenarios at least.
From my reading, the Reds used substantial numbers of Armoured Cars across virtually all fronts right from the beginning of the civil war. They seized most of the operational Imperial vehicles as well as repairing or manufacturing many more across a variety of factories. Keeping them operational was a challenge but they retained significant numbers throughout the war and captured others from the Whites. These vehicles were mostly Austin variants but there were numerous other types, including some heavy truck-based Garford Putilovs with their 76mm guns.
For tanks they had to acquire everything from the Whites or Interventionist forces. Small numbers of FT-17s were captured from the French at Odessa and the Americans in the East, with a few more even manufactured from copied or captured parts. However, the majority of Red Tanks were British built vehicles captured from the AFSR. By mid 1920 the Reds were fielding small numbers of Captured Mark V and Whippet tanks against the Poles and later used some to mop up the last of the Whites in the south.
David Bullock's Osprey on the Red Armour in the RCW is easily available and has a lot of detail on the numbers used.
Good to see the interest Trev.
There are 8 different armies for the RCW in square bashing.
This has allowed us to put the armour where it was used.
Do remember that armoured vehicles were very few on all fronts compared to the number of infantry and cavalry. They were never in distant sight of WW2 type proportions.
If you meld the armies into fewer armies i.e Reds and Whites, then you have more choice of what armour can be used. That is fine.
In my opinion the two best books about the war are Beevor Russia: Revolution and Civil War 1917-1921. Lots of information about tanks and armoured cars in this. This is the better of the two.
and
Orlando Figes A People's Tragedy. He is a strange man though.
Added to this, you might read the 1915-20 Locker Lampson naval armoured car squadron in Russia. I expect you already have seen the Ospreys on the RCW? I cannot remember the exact title, sorry.
Good luck
martin :)
There are two Osprey RCW books on Armoured vehicles of the Red Armies and those of the White Armies.
Thanks all ;D
My take on this is that Martin is always trying to balance "representative" forces with a "period flavour" in each list, while being sensitive to the scale of the battle being represented on the tabletop.
If every army could potentially field every type and quality of unit that was ever found within it, I think a lot of each armies' core individuality would be lost.
Just my twopenn'orth.
Simon
To add further to this, as you've outlined Trevor, for scenarios gonwith your historical research.
The lists help when we have game days so that we are all singing from the same hymn sheet. Outside of that, with 2 consenting adults, go with what feels right gor your game.
The two books Martin mentions are great general histories. I really enjoyed building my RCW armies whilst listening to the Beevor book on Audible. I really ought to get some Tchankas and some of the lovely new Cossacks.
The Beevor one does also give exact details of forces in battles too. He will tell readers if certain armoured vehicles are there.
martin :)
It's a great book for that kind of detail, but contains a lot of sadly gruesome passages that makes it a tough read end to end. I usually try to find one group that I can identify with a bit, but every faction in the RCW seems to have a lot to answer for...
Simon
I felt the same having read Beevors World War 2 book. The descriptions of what happened in China are gut wrenching.
Similarly I couldn't make much progress with his Berlin book. It's even more difficult to deal with living over here.
Sadly, war is gruesome, agreed.
Should we be protected from relevant detail? Probably not.
The Beevor book might therefore have a warning that it is unexpurgated?
I expect we have all read and seen footage of much grimmer accounts than those in Beevor.
I will still read such books with interest.
martin ???
Yep, I'll read them but don't mind admitting they can have an emotional impact. In truth there's not much joy in any of the military history we read, but I think time and distance can tend to sanitise the grim reality of it for use sometimes.
The rape of Nanking remains one of the worst things I've read about though.
I think it's important not to forget what happened. 20th Century civil wars (SCW, RCW..) do seem.to have been especially brutal.
Simon