Sorry finger slipped and accidentally deleted original topic
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers'Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Vet Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans. Average. D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Vet. Germans. Average. A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army. Vet. A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans. Average. D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Vet. Germans. Average. D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Vet. Fallschirmjager Average. A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Vet. US Army. Average. A
26/10/23. Mot British. Vet. German. Average. A
31/10/23. Late German Vet. US Army. Average. A
02/11/23. Mot British. Vet. Early French. Average. D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran. D
09/11/23. Japanese. Vet. British. Average. A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British. Average. D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese. Vet. D
25/11/23. German. Average. French. Average. A
25/11/23. French. Average. German. Average. A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot. Average. D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average. D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British. Average. Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British. Average. D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German. Average. A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
Stewart
QUOTE
15 attacker wins
15 defender wins
Seems pretty good in terms of game balance outcome.
What we cannot monitor is company and commander skill/luck.
Of course these games are against a background of changing rules.
We would need about 2000 results with players swapping roles, armies etc. But this data is very useful I think.
martin ???
As we continue to log these results, we could also start to look at the "armies" themselves (accepting that there is a lot of scope for force selection within most lists) to see whether there are any clear winners or losers.
My guess is that there should not be, as tactics should be adjusted to suit the forces at hand. However, a force that is particularly low on key Assets may struggle, so such analysis could act as a check on compensatory points?
Simon
Yes Simon I believe there are better and worse armies.
This is a problem because I think we want all armies to be used with equal chances of success. Probably an impossible task?
My thoughts:-
The best overall army is probably the Russian one. SMGs, assault for 3.
The second best is probably the British. Cheap AT, good assets.
Third best is probably German. Good AT.
Fourth best is probably US. AT OK and good assets.
In lower places come Japanese, followed by Italians.
In lowest places come those with no/poor foot AT or poor tanks. Non conformists too.
martin :)
To which your fixed compensation points could be part of the answer, Martin?
Once everyone has bought a Russian WW2 army from you, of course ;D
Simon
I know it is only a snap shot sample that Stewart has but it is odd that the nation that Martin thinks has the best force, i.e. the Russians, only featured once in his list, I think, and lost at that. Strange that an army perceived as very good, and I agree with Martin on this, is not in favour with the players.
John
It might well depend on the make-up of the force involved? And the quality? Lots of Raw troops can be hard to handle, and they may have rifles rather than SMGs. Or maybe the player concerned was having an off day ;)
It's probably wise not to read too much into these stats, but they make for some interesting conversations.
Simon
I think the Russians not being used much at the moment is influenced by the Putin war.
That is true for me at least.
Seems petty, but it makes me feel happier.
I will field mine as Ukrainians.
For myself I want to use a variety of companies in order to see how they work.
I will build a new company in 2024.
My possible thoughts are
1. Cossacks with Russian armour support.
2. Russian ski company. Might look odd in most scenery layouts.
3.Finnish. A bit like Russian or German though.
4. DAK. They look nice.
5. Hungarian. Turan tank looks good/powerful.
martin :)
The Italians especially when you play them are quite hard to beat. When used aggressively they can be good !
Desert war period is my favourite as the war's super weapons haven't yet come into play, but some good vehicles have started filtering thru eventually! The best Qualities of the 3 Armies come out rather than their best "big" weapons ?
Has anyone played the Americans v DAK ? Lately ?
You are right about the Russians, but maybe as the war is dragging on, maybe we can start bringing the armies out ?
Miles
Although I'm currently just finishing off my Pirates and I have an Ancient German army on route, PBI will feature next on the table. I have Russians, Americans and Germans for playtesting. I do have some 8th Army that I bought for the Crete day but they'll now form the start of a Desert Rats army. Their opponents will be Italians as I found some Bersaglieri (sp?). Quite why I have 3 packs of them I have no idea. Bought when they were first released many years ago. I'll mix them in with regular Italians for a 1941/42 army.
I too am going Italian. Having finished a CTV force in time for this year's SCW day, I am now bulking it out for PBI.
Simon
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
Stewart
Interesting results.
Raw.
5 fights. 3 wins as attacker, 2 draws as defender. All opponents average.
Veteran.
14 fights. 6 wins, 5 losses as attacker, 2 wins, 1 loss as defender. All opponents average.
No Raw v Veteran fights.
Overall.
37 fights. 16 wins, as attacker. 18 wins as defender, 3 draws.
Does this mean that raw are the best, followed by veterans, or are the results skewed because the sample size is too small with the raw and the veterans? I leave you to decide.
John
By nation.
UK 24 fights, 9 wins, 2 draws
Germany 26 fights, 12 wins, 1 draw
USA 8 fights, 2 wins, 1 draw
Japan 5 fights, 4 wins
Partisan 3 fights, 1 win, 2 draws
Russia 3 fights, 3 wins
France 3 fights, 2 wins
Italy 1 fight, 1 win
Motorized 9 fights, 4 wins No motorized v motorized yet.
Make of this what you will, but it appears that the less popular nations out perform the favourites. Again the sample size may be skewing the results.
John
Average German defenders v Veteran Americans attacking - big German win.
Good and useful analysis there John. Thank you. It gets discussion going.
My personal thoughts (opinions only).
Stewart's data gives us some good numbers to view over.
Good idea Stewart. Thanks.
Stewart himself is an important factor here too. Stewart is a very good/capable player and wins most of his games (unless he has my help). Coupled to this, Stewart is the player using the raw.
The less popular nations result might be because more experienced players are using them?
As more games are added to this list than the better we can reflect.
martin :)
The rules are of course evolving meanwhile - might this be a factor we're not capturing?
Simon
I assume you mean player ability?
A tricky one.
However, the victory point system (and some good luck) should still provide recognition of a job done well even if a player loses.
My hope is that players will play at least 8 times in a year. This should allow players to learn from their mistakes and also be able to absorb a horrible mass disaster outcome.
If players skip between various rule sets during a year then they will find it very difficult to get to grips with how to handle PBI forces.
Skippy players ( e.g 12 games in a year with 5 different rule sets) need an alpha player to guide them through each game, cut out a lot of player decision making and do the whole set up. Skippy players represent a different stye of gaming , no better and certainly no worse than repeat (play each set 8 times a year and know the rules well) players.
martin ???
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on December 30, 2023, 01:47:34 PMThe rules are of course evolving meanwhile - might this be a factor we're not capturing?
Simon
Good point Simon. It would be worthwhile identifying the rule version against the result. In science experiments you change one variable at a time.
John also makes a good point about sample sizes. Russians and Italians have a 100% victory rate but have only played 3 and 1 game respectively.
Best wishes,
Martin from Grimsby
I meant how Grimsby Martin interpreted my comment :)
Simon
The more I think about this, the more I think that, while it's fun to compare different company lists' performances, it is probably somewhat illusory, due as Grimsby Martin indicates to the large number of other variables.
I believe that this Winners vs. Losers listing started out primarily as a summary of Attacker vs. Defender results which, with this being arguably the major variable, is very valid in my view.
However - apart from some specific rules for Germans, Russians, Japanese and US - there can be (depending on force selection) very little difference between the sides. For example, I happen to be convinced that my Western Desert Italians will (once I've painted up some armour for them...) be a sure-fire game winner. But I'm equally pretty sure that I could point up an 8th Army force to face them that could differ very little in composition.
Which brings me onto another point - should there be a little more variation between forces? E.g. should the Italian Breda 30 LMG be penalised in the same way as the US BAR?
I realise I may be opening a whole can of worms here, and that we probably want to steer well clear of "national characteristics" stereotypes, but as these rules settle down there may be scope for a few such tweaks?
Simon
The Italians do have a "special". They have a shock platoon which no one else has.
On the point of national differences I would be in favour of the little differences being extended. For example the Finns also employed desant riders on their tanks at times. The American tommy gun was unreliable and had a tendency to jam. Shouldn't the Gurkhas get a 3AP assault against the Germansand Italians as well as the Japanese (the Germans/Itaians were apparently terrified of the Gurkhas). I am sure others could come up with other thoughts.
John
John, what I was getting at was that there are nation-specific rules e.g. for the BAR and Garand, German LMGs and Japan and Russians assaulting on a 3, but nothing equivalent for the Brits, Italians, French, etc. I accept that the army lists allow differing compositions of bases between nations and periods.
I wasn't trying to suggest adding ant further nuances such as the wide difference in performance of SMGs, but rather mixing up what we already have, such as your suggestion of a reduced score to assault with Gurkhas (which I might even have remembered to include in one of the Crete scenarios).
I think we're heading broadly in the same direction!
Simon
If you played games at the Berlin day do please add them to this list.
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
Stewart
I've added my two Berlin Day games, with Derek and John, respectively, to the bottom of this list:
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
You have left off Russian raw attacking German veteran FSJ defenders. Defender win from 13/1/24 results. There are other results missing from that day.
John
"If you played games at the Berlin day do please add them to this list."
martin :)
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian raw British average A
25/1/24 Italian raw British avergae A
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
Played five games Thursday evening, all day Friday.
Results
ATT Russian average 1942 vs DEF German Pz Grenadiers average. Def won piggy chase 36v7 (!!). Result ATT win. Attacker failed all three asset rolls.
ATT British Paras 1944 Vet vs DEF German Pz Grenadiers average. Def won piggy chase 36v26. Result ATT win
ATT German Infantry 1944 Avge vs DEF US Paras Vet. ATT won piggy chase 36v27.
Result ATT win
ATT Italian 1943 Vet vs DEF American Avge. ATT won piggy chase 36v10.
Result DEF win
ATT American 1943 veteran vs DEF German average. ATT won piggy chase 36v7.
Result ATT win
Attacker wins four to defender once.
The piggy chase winner won two games, lost three.
Did you have the same players, Nigel?
Simon
Yes Simon.
Me and my now 30 years going buddy Richard get together about 4 times a year for a two day festival of gaming.
We've dedicated the second day to PBI since, I think, 2012.
I try out the latest version of new PBI with him.
Next festival is mid-April.
That's nice to have had a gaming buddy for so long, Nigel.
Good for consistency / comparative purposes to have had the same players for all 5 games in rapid succession too.
Simon
The new rules worked well. All the games were good. Both players feeling they had a good chance as the clock counted down and the tension built.
I have a few notes to feedback to Martin. Just need to find time to write them up. Small things only.
Update.
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
martin :)
I'm feeling the need for graphs, pie charts and lots of colours now, Martin :)
Simon
Agreed Simon. A power point?
martin :)
I think so - a few probabilities and standard deviations wouldn't go amiss too? :D
Simon
Update.
Do please add any games you have played.
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
15/3/24 US raw German volksturm Raw D
19/3/24 Russian vet German volksturn Raw D
20/3/24 8th army vet Italian av A
martin :)
So far so gamed
18 wins for defender
16 wins for attacker
3 draws
This seems fine but takes no account of other factors such as army type and player abaility.
martin :)
martin
Quote from: martin goddard on March 21, 2024, 04:09:43 PMSo far so gamed
18 wins for defender
16 wins for attacker
3 draws
This seems fine but takes no account of other factors such as army type and player abaility.
martin :)
martin
Or changes in the rules over time ;)
Simon
Yes Simon, that too.
Still useful though.
martin :)
Update.
Do please add any games you have played.
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
15/3/24 US raw German volksturm Raw D
19/3/24 Russian vet German volksturn Raw D
20/3/24 8th army vet Italian av A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army average A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army avergae A
2/4/2024 Russian veteran German raw D
4/4/2024 British A German A D
Incrediblynuseful I'd say. I'm not sure what margin would indicate a bias towards one attacker or defender, but I'd say this as balanced as one could ever hope for.
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
15/3/24 US raw German volksturm Raw D
19/3/24 Russian vet German volksturn Raw D
20/3/24 8th army vet Italian av A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army average A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army avergae A
2/4/2024 Russian veteran German raw D
4/4/2024 British A German A D
9/4/2024 British Average (350) German Average D
Good to see the Germans doing so well in the last 3 games :)
Simon
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
15/3/24 US raw German volksturm Raw D
19/3/24 Russian vet German volksturn Raw D
20/3/24 8th army vet Italian av A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army average A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army averqge A
2/4/2024 Russian veteran German raw D
4/4/2024 British A German A D
9/4/2024 British Average (350) German Average D
16/4/2024 8th army average Italian average A ?
17/4/2024 Finnish (350) Average British 14th army Average A
18/4/2024
Do add any games you have played please.
martin :)
DATE ATTACKER Quality DEFENDER Quality WINNER
15/08/2023 Africa corps Average 8th Army Average A
16/08/2023 8th Army Average Africa corp. Average A
19/08/2023 Late war German Average Late war British Average D
21/08/2023 German Pz Grenadiers Average Late war US Average A
26/09/2023 Volkstrum Raw Late war British Average A
28/09/2023 Late war US Average Partisans Raw Draw
03/10/2023 Late war British Average Partisans Raw Draw
05/10/2023 Partisans Raw Late war British Average A
11/10/2023 Japanese Raw 14th Army Average A
12/10/2023 14th Army Average Russian Average D
17/10/2023 German Paras Average US Army Average D
18/10/2023 8th Army Average Italian Average D
19/10/2023 British Motorised Veteran Fallschirmjager Average D
21/10/23. US Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average. Mot 8th Army Veteran A
21/10/23. 8th Army. Average. Late Germans Average D
21/10/23. Motorised British. Veteran Germans Average D
21/10/23. Mot 8th Army. Veteran Fallschirmjager Average A
21/10/23. Africa corps. Average Japanese. Average D
24/10/23. Late German. Veteran US Army Average A
26/10/23. Mot British. Veteran German Average A
31/10/23. Late German Veteran US Army Average A
02/11/23. Mot British. Veteran Early French Average D
07/11/23 Late German. Average. Late Russian. Veteran D
09/11/23. Japanese. Veteran British Average A
16/11/23 Motorised. German average British Average D
21/11/23. US Marines. Average. Japanese Veteran D
25/11/23. German. Average. French Average A
25/11/23. French. Average. German Average A
25/11/23. German. Average. British mot Average D
28/11/23. Japanese. Vet. US Marines. Average D
30/11/23. EW German. Average. EW British Average Draw
14/12/23. German. Average. British Average D
19/12/23. Russian. Average. German Average A
21/12/23 French Average British Average D
28/12/23 British Veteran German Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Average Russian Average A
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Average D
13/1/24 German Late War Average Russian Raw A
16/1/24 US Average French Average D
17/1/24 German Average French Average A
23/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
25/1/24 Italian Raw British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average A
1/2/24 Japanese Average British Average D
5/2/24 Russian Average German Pz Grenadiers Av A
5/2/24 Brit paras Vet German Pz Grenadiers A
5/2/24 German 1944 Av US Paras A
5/2/24 Italian 1943 Vet US Av D
5/2/24 US Vet German Av A
13/1/24 Russan Raw German paras Vet D
5/3/24 Russian av German av D
7/3/24 US raw German av D
12/3/24 Finnish Raw British LW Average A
15/3/24 US raw German volksturm Raw D
19/3/24 Russian vet German volksturn Raw D
20/3/24 8th army vet Italian av A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army average A
30/3/24 8th Army average 8th Army averqge A
2/4/2024 Russian veteran German raw D
4/4/2024 British A German A D
9/4/2024 British Average (350) German Average D
16/4/2024 8th army average Italian average A ?
17/4/2024 Finnish (350) Average British 14th army Average A
18/4/2024 ?
21/4/2024 British LW Average German LW Average D
21/4/2024 British LW Average German LW Average A
23/4/2024 German LW raw US veteran A
30/4/2024 German LW Veteran v British Raw D
10/5/2024 British LW Raw v German LW Veteran Attacker
martin :)
Recorded PBI games
36 Attacker wins
33 Defender wins
3 Draws
martin :)
There is some nice symmetry there :)
Simon
It does look nice Simon.
How come defenders can win with fewer troops at the game start with only 10 VP available from buildings to compensate them?
martin :)
Maybe some skill is involved, Martin? :)
Simon
Surely not?
martin :)
Or it could be that the defenders have the magic ratio in their favour?
John
It's all about the game start, and good(lucky) die rolling when defending?
Actually Attacking or Defending!
That's the dominant factor you get the right start and can inflict casualties early on, this steers the game ? The first player to lose a platoon of infantry can usually be the loser ? Especially if the support platoon has suffered too !
If you can get your third unit on(guns) then that helps too, I find at least ?
The 10 VP from buildings isn't a big factor, it helps ?
Miles
Do we agree that the game balance is right?
It looks right.
Explain your thoughts more please John.
martin :)
The magic ratio. I can't remember who said it but it is 3 to 1. Never attack unless you have that advantage over the defender, if you expect to win. Obviously not a hard and fast rule. There are many historical exceptions where battles have been won with less and lost with more. In PBI this is sometimes achieved with depletions and then it is a case of the defender trying to slow down the attacker until the reserves arrive to save the day. In other cases it can be trying to achieve the magic ratio on a local basis at the expense of other areas of the battlefield. Hope that makes sense.
John
Further to my last post. The 3 to 1 theory comes from 1991 when published in a US army officer training course. It stated that historical research had found that a defender has a 50:50 chance of successfully defending when outnumbered by the attacker by 3 to 1. However this is somewhat simplistic and there are many other factors involved, such as training, preparation, planning and commitment. Apparently in WW2 the ratio was different. Attackers in the range of 1 to 1 up to 1.5 to 1 achieved success 63% of the time. I do not know what the time span was that lead to the US 3 to 1 figure. It also stated that 3 to 1 was against prepared defences (I don't know what they define as prepared defences). Against hasty defences the ratio comes down to 2.5 to 1.
Ultimately there is a magic ratio, but what it is depends on what you believe and whether or not it is magic probably depends on whether you win, lose or draw.
John
Thanks John
martin :)