RFCM

Hi everyone,

I need your advice and/or opinions on what a Carolingian Frankish army should look like.

I mean, there's on my workbench a small pile of pewter awaiting to be painted, but I have no idea about the average/recommended size of units in such an army.
Besides, there are a few subtleties in base types, sizes and figure placing that I don't quite understand - most likely due to my own pityful ignorance on how Martin's Dark Ages ruleset actually works.

Would anyone give me a few tips or examples on how an archetypical Carolingian Army would be built, please?

Thanks in advance,
Lluís

Lluis,

I'm sure others will jump in on more specifics - or I can do so in due course - although I've bought an army to cover all options which saves me working out a specific list at this point.

My feeling is that since each of the "Longships" armies have their own flavour, the army should reflect that. Hence the Carolingians should maximise their Cavalry, since they are the only army to really feature proper cavalry.

Simon

Is the army for Longships, Conquerors and Kings or both?
John

Hi Lluis
For Longships, the rules have the following

Army leader
Figure + standard. 40x40mm base

Unit leaders  single figure 30x40mm base (some of mine have a standard as well )
Armoured base 3 figures
Unarmoured.    4 figures
Levy.                5 figures
All on 30x30mm base

Mounted units
30x40mm base
1 figure less from above
No mounted levy

Units are built on a point system and consist of a number of bases, 5 units in the army

C&K
Each army has a list with minimum units required
Armoured, Bow , skirmish, auxiliary etc
Each unit is 3 bases
Skirmish units 2 bases

Army lGeneral figure + standard 40x40mm base
Close order infantry 4 figures per bases
Auxiliary infantry.     3 figures
Skirmish infantry.     2 figures
All on 30x30mm base

Cavalry 3 figures per base
Mounted Skirmish  2 figures per base
All on 40x40mm base


Stewart

Ohhhh thanks Stewart and all, I'm starting to understand now.

So the goal here would be building an army eventually suitable for both rulesets, although with a main focus on 'Longships'?

Also, I've learnt that there can be 'half bases' too (these being 30 x 15 mm). Out of curiosity, what are these used for?

Thanks again,
Lluís

Hi Lluis
Yes I'm building a longships force but may be used in C&K

Dead bases are used in both and 1/2 bases in C&K as units take casualties

Stewart

Stewart

I think half bases are not used in Longships?


martin :)

I think that's what Stewart is saying, Martin  ;)

Some additional punctuation may perhaps have helped, but he does have his words spelled correctly and in the right order  ;D

Simon

I'm typing with 1 finger

Stewart

You're doing better than most of us with 8, Stewart.

Simon

Just found this amazing review on Carolingian cavalry, which is also plentiful of pictures:
https://deadliestblogpage.wordpress.com/2017/05/03/elite-warriors-of-the-dark-ages-caballarii-of-charlemagne/

Lluís

There's some nice information there, Lluis.

I'd thought that they'd been cheeky "borrowing" Osprey pictures, but they say this is with permission. It's certainly a nicely condensed summary.

Simon

Hi again,

I'm a little confused about one of Martin's Carolingian foot figures - to be precise, the one at the right of photo below:

(https://www.peterpig.co.uk/CAROLINGIAN%20spear%20command.jpg)

What is that guy supposed to hold in his right hand? (Humble apologies for my blatant ignorance)

Lluís

A horn?
Neil

I too had thought it was a horn.

Simon

It could be his promotion certificate, showing the troops he is the leader

Stewart

That is a good point, Stewart.

Or it could simply be a shopping list?

Simon

I can't speak to the rules but from a historical standpoint the Franks were the precursors of the Feudal system, so thinking of them in terms of retinues combining into larger forces is probably the way to go. Minor lords would provide a mounted knight and squire and various infantry ranging from their immediate household/bodyguard to a general levy of the able bodied population they control. It would not be that different to Viking boat companies combining to make a host or raiding party so I can see Martin's thinking...

My Game of Thrones forces used Lion Rampant and I had contingents from a House comprising 1 Knight, 1 Mtd MAA and 12 infantry figures made up of a Captain, Std. Bearer and 4 infantry and 6 archers. 3 Houses combined to make a force of 6 cavalry, 6 foot MAA, 12 Spear, 12 Archers and 6 skirmishers.   

Visually there is nothing stopping you opting for specific combinations of colours for each Carolingian faction for their shields and by mixing the forces together creating the variegated shield wall host we are all familiar with.


As to the CO - I believe he is holding a Military baton. This was emulating those used in the Roman and Byzantine empires as a symbol of authority wielded by Legates. This would evolve into the Mace that we are more familiar with, and ultimately the Field Marshal's Baton...

It is indeed a horn with the larger end under the hand.

martin :)

ooh, I see now... apologies, Martin! No doubt I would have figured that out when I looked at the figure up closer. I can see the strap for the horn? It looks like our man has a mallet tucked in his belt but I presume that is a leather pouch with a sheathed knife under?

Neil

Thanks for your kind help, Sirs :)

Definitely a malet /hammer Neil


martin :)

ouch! You definitely wouldn't want to mess with that CO!

Neil

I know in the future I will be asking the same things, about Saxons and Macedonians( once Martin has made an army)
Miles

I think it is possible to build a Saxon army right now. Anything lacking  the Saxon figures currently available can be found among the Vikings, as the unarmoured ones are pretty generic Dark Age figures and could be used in a variety of the armies of the time.

Just a quick question, before I make an irreparable mistake:

I already know that in Longships and Conquerors & Kings horse units are to be based on 3 x 4 cm stands.

But... how are these to be placed? I mean, must they keep the same frontage as foot units, or must they show the 4 cm side as their front?  :-[

Not sure the official answer but I would use the same frontage for all bases. I do for mine - but then I use them for other rule sets as well.

Hi Lluis
The front of all bases is 30mm, the depth is 30 for infantry, 40 for mounted

Stewart

Stewart, would this be in a "V" formation i.e. 2 forward and 1 back, typically?

Simon

Simon, yes but you could be a devil and have 1 forward 2 back,
That would confuse the enemy

Stewart

Well it would certainly confuse me - I'd likely have half of my force going backwards  :D

Simon

Let's talk about the half bases now - that I assume are intended for representing a given unit's progressive attrition.
Are they supposed to be 1.5cm wide and 3cm deep? or vice versa?

Also, would it be helpful, or would it make any sense at least, to have half cavalry bases? (that is, half the size of a regular horse base with a single horseman there?)

Thanks in advance,
Lluís

Hi Lluis
Thanks for asking,
1/2 bases are just 1/2 the normal base size with a single figure on.


Stewart