RFCM

Obviously not an RFCM ruleset, but it was written for 15mm figures, and PP already provides a wider (I believe) and nicer range than the original Tabletop figures: Pony Wars (which I've long regretted not buying when it was originally available) is being reprinted in a modern version by the 3 surviving original authors:

http://ponywars.uk/

Baccus has long been rumoured to be planning a 6mm range to suit, but this could also be good for 15mm - probably as a group project rather than one person fielding the hundreds of figures required.

As I write, they're still 1,478 pre-orders shy of their 1,500 pre-production target, but it will be interesting to see how much enthusiasm this generates for all things Western.

Simon

PP would be lucky to sell that many rules in a 7 year print run, let alone a pre order.

I expect they have re-written the rules for one on one games?
I played the original rules back in 1976?
We played quite a  lot, using buckets and buckets of Peter Laing plains wars figures. i had to build 150 Indian cavalry for a start.

The controversial bit. Based on the original set. Thus this might all be rubbish if the set has changed.

1. Hollywood based and very amusing. No pre game or strategic (battle plan) decisions. Just set up and follow the random events generated by the game.
2. Really big table with lots  of buttes etc.
3.Needs a very large number of figures plus specials such as the lone ranger.

I would happily play the game, if someone  else painted up the figures and ran the game. Great fun for a club games night with lots of people playing. The rules did specifically request that others did not put on games at shows of this rule set.

Good luck to the publishers of this iconic and famous rule set.


martin

Thanks for your perspective, Martin. I have signed up for the new rules, so can report back on any changes (likely to be options rather than a rewrite, from what I can infer).

It might be something to do at the 2025 WWW?

Simon

Sounds interesting. Only another 1462 people to get interested now. :)

Derek (Mog)

The rules are to be the original with no changes, other than some clarifications and an appendix with some ideas to stream line the game. The book will be hardback and I think in colour. But 600 Indians is beyond most single players to collect!

The Hollywood thing is ok in my eyes. It's not pretending to be history and very much influenced by the John Ford vision of the Cavalry. Having said that, it's not a game you can get playing in a couple of weeks from purchase. I think it's a nostalgia project, as a tribute to Ian Beck, one of the original authors.

The subscription model, with a target set at 1,500, seems a lot. I assume that there is an anticipation that there is the customer base out there to reach the goal. With my primary school maths, that works out at over £37,000 in sales. I shall follow with interest. I actually have the original version, but may support the project funds permitting.

Well it's gaining rapid traction.

Just during the course of the day, the subscribers have increased 350%. To 77...

Simon

I have the rules and the specials all mounted onto cards.
Dave has most of the figures and Martin converted several specials like the war wagon.
We played quite often at STaB.
It needs a lot of time, a lot of stuff, a large table, and a lot of players for all the factions.

Great game, but all very Hollywood.

At that price I'm glad I have a copy of the original.  A while back I considered doing it in 6mm but it's still an awful lot of kit so I didn't go ahead with the project. 

From a solo player's point of view, the arrivals and reaction charts are really interesting, providing a method to determine the actions of a non-played side.  Probably best suited to non-organised forces (ie natives) and adaptable to other settings as Peter Gilder demonstrated when he used it as the basis for his Sundan rules.

Brian

I would be interested in getting a copy but I'm not subscribing and paying up front for a product that may never see the light of day. 

I ve got a set of the original rules too. As Les says we played it at STaB a few times.
Maybe we could go through the rules and breakdown some of the scenes into smaller scenarios and then play them out using the 'Western Rules' hopefully not requiring all the figures needed at one time ? I do remember the endless boxes of figures required.
Miles

Hello Paul
I think they will publish it anyway (they have put a lot of work into it) , but are pushing for maximum income.
Their consideration might be that after the initial rush sales would be small. Hence make the money up front and have a long tail of smaller sales?

martin :)

Just like a Hollywood film release, then?

A cunning plan!

Simon

Yes Peter has stated that anyone who pays up front will get the rules. It's not dependant on hitting 1,500 subscribers. But that is the sweet spot to break even financially.

Most of the figures for the game could probably come from the existing Western range.
But 600 mounted Indians would take a lot of painting...

Spray and wash would give 'acceptable results'to get going with though.

Like I said before, I think if we looked at the rules you could break down a lot of the scenarios to manageable "Western" games and play them out on a "Westerns" game day ? For a future date ? Later next year or something ?
A great theme for a Games day ? Once we have some sort of normal again ?
Miles

Quote from: Sean Clark on September 15, 2020, 11:38:21 PM
Spray and wash would give 'acceptable results'to get going with though.

But then Martin might retire on the rich profits from 600 Indians (plus all the dead bases, of course) and never have to sculpt anything for us again?  :-\

Worrying times...

Simon

Miles you would need to make it multi-player games, with three of more forces who have different objectives. But yes Western would make some interesting games using the infighting created by these rules.

It's a project worth looking into. I would say we have a year before we would get round to doing it. First of I need to dig up my set of Pony Wars, before I can look at them. 6 months or so of this current problems, then once we start getting clear, project Crete will be in full swing. Then any other projects for next summer etc.
Miles

Did anyone get/buy these rules?


martin :)

I paid into the Kickstarter, along with (as of today) 268 others. They're still a tad short of their 1,500 subscriber target, and I've had no updates.

I guess Covid isn't helping...

Simon

I am also a supporter but sadly not sure if this will come to fruition

Maybe they will just publish it normally, as they seem to have done a nice job on presentation and layout already? They could probably break even at about 200 copies.


martin  ???

Martin, Dave and myself have the original set of rules, and all the bits. Dave built most of the factions and you even built a War wagon for him!!

Quote from: Leslie BT on January 19, 2021, 09:35:54 PM
Martin, Dave and myself have the original set of rules, and all the bits. Dave built most of the factions and you even built a War wagon for him!!

That sounds like a Weymouth Weekend game might be possible, then...?

Simon

I would be happy to join in and play Les. 

I do not want to organise it though.

I can provide  a lot of Indians and cavalry.

Dave M does have a lot of stuff for the game but  you wil need to check he still has it. I can pick it up no problem  if he is happy to lend it.

If you organise it for the WWW Les maybe everyone can play in that same game?

martin :)

Les If you wanted to organise it, I would be happy to contribute? But I would need some form of lead time, as I ve only got Confederate and Union troops made for "Western" so far. I ve got Indians box set from PP to paint and some Cowboys from Old glory to paint, awaiting the others to arrive ?( can't see that happening now?)
Miles

I'd love to play, particularly if someone else already has the toys to do so.

I quite fancy doing some 7th Cavalry at some point, but other things are currently higher up the priority list.

Simon

I would very likely buy the rule set if published and if a game is organised I have Indians, Cavalry and cowboys.


Stewart

It's going to be released 'soon' according to Pete at Bacchus. The target number of subscribers was always an aspiration rather than a condition of it going ahead

In that case the game shoudl be a "goer" Les??


martin :)

Did anyone in the group play the last edition of the rules?
I will get out the list of what was need for the game.
The table for the largest game was 6/0 x 8/0 or even 6/0 x 10/0.
At STaB we used to play it as a Christmas game as it needs a lot of terrain and a lot of figures.

I will get the list on here over the weekend.

I played it a few times in 1973.
I have a cloth and scenery if that helps.
There is a need for some special figures such as lone ranger et al.
Maybe the new print rules will be out over the summer and hence will be read widely before then?


martin :)

Does anyone know what the changes if any are in the new rules?

Yes I think there are a number of special characters.

Miles, I think maybe we have plenty of lead in time.

The blurb says that there are no changes at all.
I will try to find my copy.

martin :)

For the STaB games I have all the 'special' bits printed up on cards.

I think that woud be all good Les.
martin :)

I remember playing the game twice at STaB, I do somewhere have the original rules ?
But with a bit of tweaking etc I still think we could play the game using PP Western rules, if we didn't want to play the whole original Pony Wars game ? Breaking it up into manageable and meaningful bits ?
Miles

Count me in if the weekender goes ahead. Sunday morning game maybe?

Or Saturday night - keep going until you drop...?

Simon

I suggest we play the game in its pure form as a sort of "look back 50 years" and see how gaming was different then?


martin ???

So we may need all of Sunday too then  :D (I have a feeling games took longer in the '70s...)?

Simon

I would prefer only Saturday night. Late if folks wish.
Otherwise too much time is taken up with a retrospective game belonging to some other company with no ties to the RFCM group.
The WWW has a total of 5 or 6 sessions. Using more than 1 would be bad in my opinion.


The final decision rests with Stewart. He is the father of WWW.



martin :)

Sorry Martin - I was only kidding. It would be heresy not to spend the majority of the weekend playing RFCM games.

Simon

Indeed, Saturday night last time around (playing a non-RFCM game) reminded Big Mike and me why we actually preferred squares and straightfoward mechanics, and thus focus on the tactics of the game itself.

Simon

In reply to Leslie's question, I've never played but have the old rules.  I have to say that the combat rules are quite a contrast with the otherwise elegant system.

Brian

This is why I suggest that we take the basic principle of Pony Wars and then transfer it to Western game. Kills 2 birds with one stone.... Simples
Miles

If you play a lot of factions, Western is too simple!

Oh no - you said the "F-word", Les - you'll get Martin all hot and bothered...

Simon

Well, if the meaning does not matter then any word is fine.
No problem.
This is really shown well by the intro section of  "Sorry I haven't a clue".

Just makes it harder to communicate effectively.


martin :)

But for a evening's game and keeping PP this might be the best way around it at WWW ?
Miles

Sorry Simon, factions is what the rules are about!

I can back Les up on that it does say "factions" but if we say groups or tribes say I think this wouldn't be wrong to use ?
Miles

Those who use factions wrongly, as seems the case here should not be encouraged.
Don't think they used factions in the original rulebook? Therefore, it might be a re-write and not the original?

In the US it is common to say "I could care less" when " I couldn't care less" is meant.  The other one is the new word "noone"  meaning "no one".


Folk who do not understand the meaning of "faction"  will also believe that lovers of flora/fauna are naturists (maybe they are). :)

I often refer to "better check that unit's morals" with a raised eyebrow of expectation; which seems to be accepted the same as "better check that unit's morale".

I am not mocking them (well a bit), as my own vocabulary is often wrong. However if we perpetuate wrongness then the language loses clarity.

In my  work a nail and screw are different. If the difference causes no alarm to others then fine, but I would be wary of their advice. 

Even Jesus and his apostrophes would not want to mix circumcision with circumference?

On a mathematical note I informed an advanced level group that we were going to  learn about iteration.  Alice informed me that they had already done it in English lessons the previous year.


martin :)


Just off to get 3 litres of brake fluid oil for the car gearbox. ;)

I put Pony wars into google, this came up amongst other things, so for those that don't know what we are talking about or need a reminder ?

https://theuncivilservantblog.wordpress.com/2017/06/12/pony-wars-or-b-troop-aint-coming-back/

Miles

Thanks Miles, that does sound fun.

And the number of figures doesn't look too scary in that AAR, particular as basing doesn't look too different from that for Western?

Simon

Thanks Miles. I have never come across this game before but it looks like chaotic fun. Could be a winner for WWW Saturday night.
John

Those pictures do show the game but not all the players units or the number of Indians.

The game is very chaotic.

The Western based figures will be fine as base sizes etc do not mater.

You need 5 troops of 7th Cavalry.
80 dismounted cavalry.
2 batteries of 12 pounders guns and crews.
1 battery of Gattling guns.
Limbers for the guns.
Indian scouts.
Volunteer scouts
2 regiments US Infantry
3 ammunition wagons.
2 guns and crews for the fort and 10 US Infantry
1 Dando figure.

Civilians.
3 full wagon traisn.
70 dismounted civilians.
20 mounted civilians.
1 gun runners wagon.
1 stage coach.
1 war wagon.
Lone Ranger, and Tonto.
30 longhorn cattle.

Indians.
Lots.
30 buffalo, one must be white!
For the scenery, the Fort, the Mission, the Stage Depot, the miners camp, two homesteads, indian camp.
There are a couple of smaller scenarios and a total war scenario.
So this is a large but fast game with the Indians played by a couple of players and the rest playing the US army and civilians some good some bad. 
The orginal game was designed for a 8/0 x 6/0 foot table.

This is all from the original rule book published in September 1980 by Ian Beck.

Thanks for the summary, Les. Very useful!

How many bases each are the 7th Cavalry troops and the US infantry,  please?

Simon

Thanks for the list Les,
I have a fort and some of all the units listed.
So possible game Sunday at the WWW if it goes ahead.


Stewart

I think we could do it one way or another ?
I think WWW will go ahead, it's looking like things that involve people meeting together won't be sanctioned until late Summer now.
What Stewart and Les need to decide is it going to be the original game ? Or a PP driven variable?
Most of the bases will of course be PP style, but I don't think that makes a huge difference?
Miles

Original game too complicated to turn it into Western as ammo is an important and intrinsic part of the game as the US have limited ammo and ammo wagons.

US Cavalry. 120 mounted cavalry, NCO or Officer 1 figure in 5. Dressed in the best Hollywood tradition, yellow neckerchiefs, sabres, Winchesters carbines, Colt revolver.

80 dismounted US Cavalry with horses and horse-holders.

US Infantry 40 figures, Officer 1 figure in 10.

US Artillery 4 12 pounders each with 4 gunners, mounted officer, limber and team.
2 Gatling guns each with 4 gunners, mounted officer, limber and team.

3 ammunition wagons with driver and team.

For the fort 2 12 pounders each with 4 gunners, mounted officer, and 10 US Infantry.

There is also Indian scouts and volunteer scouts and Dando.

Are there any pictures surviving of  this game being put on at shows??

martin

Thanks Les. This sounds quite do-able for a group?

Simon

found these with pictures.
http://www.warbard.ca/tag/pony-wars/
https://legendarywargames.com/blog/magnificent-25mm-pony-wars-collection-up-for-sale/

Disscusion on the game .
http://www.figuren.miniatures.de/wargame-pony-wars.html

Thanks Les - all useful links.

It's also good to see the range of basing that folk have used, which will make things rather easier for us.

Simon

Thank you Les
Really interesting and illuminating.



martin

Pictures from a game at Southborne showing the size of the table and number of players.(https://imgur.com/fb29lIg)

the pictures
(https://i.imgur.com/3rooFXI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/fb29lIg.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/rt1raAc.jpg)

Excellent scenery and table layouts, Les. I recognise the little Mexican Church from my own collection. What vintage. Are these pics? ( you all look very youthful!).
Mike

this was around 2004. At Southborne, old club house.

Looks biggish, but do-able for WWW.

I think I recognise some PP buildings in there.

Thanks for posting, Les.

Simon

I think the table was 16.0 x 6.0 foot

https://youtu.be/b7Smvj69hZ0 (https://youtu.be/b7Smvj69hZ0)

As part of the Joy of Virtual 6 online show this weekend, Peter Berry, one of the original authors of Pony Wars has produced this video. It shows the original 15mm figures created for the game by Peter Laing. Sit close enough to the screen and you will be able to smell the nostalgia!

Anyone wishing to take a look at the virtual Joy of Six, here is the link: https://discord.gg/7FGXU555SH (https://discord.gg/7FGXU555SH)

Thanks Sean.  That vid was amazing.  I'll be getting a copy and hammering the Pig for 15mm figures.

Thanks for sharing, Sean - a lovely nostalgic piece.

I failed to buy the rules first time around, so am looking forward to my shiny coloured version in the Autumn.

My guess is that there could be quite a pent-up demand for the Lone Ranger and Tonto in 15mm to accompany the rules' release, and that if anyone were to sculpt a character pack (I don't yet know whether the game requires dismounted and dead versions of these figures), it could sell well.

Simon

Damm, just watching that vid has brought on the figurative "drooling". Even getting thoughts of putting back my Ak47 stuff for it........... almost but not quite!.


Derek

Looks great.

martin :)

Quote from: pbeccas (Paul) on July 02, 2021, 12:43:08 PM
Thanks Sean.  That vid was amazing.  I'll be getting a copy and hammering the Pig for 15mm figures.

As ypu say Paul, other than the Lonee Ranger and stagecoach it's all there!

I'm assuming the Peter Laing range is long gone now.

The Peter Laing range was last heard of as going to John Mitchell who used to do paper / card buildings and sold them through PL.
That was many years ago. They occasionally surface on eBay where nostalgic collectors fight over them.

I have mixed feelings; they were some of my earliest "proper" wargames figures but were very crude. At the time there was little choice in 15mm .
I remember one person describing them as "a piece of flash with a pin stuck in it!"
Some however still wax lyrical over them.....
Neil

Good memories Neil.
Sadly John passed three years ago.
He was wargaming right up until the end.
That's the way to do it.
He did offer me the company but I think after all these years it would be more burden than blessing.



martin :)

Sad to hear of JM.
Martin you could revive the packing methods......
They always came in newspaper wrapped boxes filled with sawdust IIRC.......

The only market would be the collectors.

Somewhere in the world, there's my Peter Laing Irish Confederate army.......
Neil

I don't know the fate of Peter Laing himself.
He might still be around??


martin ???

Oddly there a quite a few live auctions on eBay for Peter Laing, asking prices that are a tad inflated I feel  :)

Well, I couldn't help myself.  I just speared in a modest order to the pig for some US Cavalry and some mounted Indians.  Just to get a taste 😀

Sounds like a Character pack in the making Martin for PP Western range. The Lone Ranger and Tonto. The Masked Lawman and his faithful companion...
Miles

And don't forget Silver!

Paul,

I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with!

I'm keeping my eye on the Pony Wars chat with Peter on Discord Sean.  Hopefully it will be at an hour when I'm up and about.

It was really nice to see the original figures and scenery that was used back in the 1980s. Wonderful.
It was odd though that they requested that others did not put the game on at shows.
I don't know how many shows they put it on at but encouragement could have seen it happen at quite a few shows?
Probably killed it a bit at shows.

martin :)

Stewart this video will give you a better idea of what the game is about.

We now need to put names against the scenery.

Just ordered another batch of mounted Indians.  That will take me up to 50.  I hope that's all I'll need for Pony Wars.

Hello Paul
I thnk you need about 200.
However, probably best to do a ratio of 4 to 1 or similar.  So 50 Indians appearing could be represented by 12?  Unles you are playing the game a lot i would say that 200 Indians is a lot/too much to buy.
The cavalry, wagon train etc are much more in normal wargame proportions.
These smaller amounts are enjoyable to paint and collect.

I bought 200 PeteLaing Indians on horses, but they got so little use I melted them down


martin :)

For the full game as written, you need 600 mounted Indians. I suspect this is beyond most people's abilities.

However, should this put ypu off, I do know of another great rule set that works for cowboys and Indians. You don't need a tape measure or an 8' table for it either 😂😅😉👍

600 mounted Indians.  OMG.

Looks like I'll be using six D100 dice as casually markers.

I shudder to ask how many dismounted Indians are required?

Melting down figures makes my heart break Martin.  The poor little guys.

it is planned for Les to put on a game at the WWW, Martin and i have collected two big tool boxes full of figures + what we have as a group for PP western i think we will have enough.


Stewart

Hopefully Stewart, I'll be able to get over if our governments agree and sort out whats going on with Brexit and Covid!

My nice new hardback version of the reprinted rules arrived in the post today.

There's a deck of cards too - also very nice, if a little bashed by Mr Postie.

I'm looking forward to reading this all through properly, but already the pictures (of 6mm, 15mm and 28mm figures) are quite inspiring.

Simon

That sounds great Simon.  I'll have to keep an eye out for its general release.

Good news Simon,
They said they hoped to get a 1/3 of orders out before they went away on holiday
Hopefully will get my when they return.


Stewart

YAY, arrived today

mine arrived today

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-n5uaIBF2XHY/YR-LtFk_lmI/AAAAAAAATjs/PVCOMiWPObgB3hIuOXiq2ttLJxI4MA4bgCPcBGAsYHg/s3962/IMG_5859.JPG)

A lot of figures needed innit....and a LOT of space

Derek

Yes, a lot of figures. But as Simon says, you can proxy or have bases that are nominally 20 figures but physically only have 5 or 6.

We are planning to run this game on Sunday at the Weymouth Weekend

Stewart

Take photos Stewart.

i will try but we all get very excited and involved in the games and forget pictures, especially if we are losing


Stewart

Just as a minor project mind you.

How many different packs from other ranges (without headswaps) would be suitable for you use to create different cavalry troops that would be interchangeable between Pony Wars and Western.

Hello Si
Do have a browse at the ACW confederate packs. They have the appropriate weaponry and kit. You might also use the acw union in cap and swap the heads for brimmed hats?

martin :)

I hope to garner some enthusiasm locally to use the Pony War rules for playing the Riel Rebellion (Canada 1885 version). 

Much to my surprise Martin you have almost all the figures (allowing for head swaps).  Such a variety of characters, weapons & uniforms & civilian dress. Lasted only for a number of months but was full of everything Pony wars seems to allow for.

Looking forward to getting my copy and reading how some of the games have gone.

Bob

I was finally able to place an order.  Really excited to have a copy heading my way soon..