Thought I'd start a thread for a place to recommend books and other resources for the Mexican Revolution.
It's a conflict of which I know virtually nothing about other than the odd film. I've heard a book by Blake be recommended. A good general history is needed.
Any and all recommendations welcome.
I'm fairly ignorant on the subject but as part of a project to do the Mexican Revolution in 20mm (Crush The Gringos) I bought the Osprey which seems to cover most of what I wanted. The usual thing. A brief history, army organisation, weapons and uniforms. Usual b and w photos plus colour plates. So it would seem to be a good starting point.
John
Good idea Sean.
The political and leadership movements are the most complicated of any war(s).
I would suggest concentrating only on the entire career of Zapata.
Zapata reveals much about the causes of war. :-\
It makes the wars seem more logical.
Then consider each offshoot (Heurta, Madero, Villa), using Zapata as an anchoring spine (until he dies).
There are also many really interesting field commanders.
Initially set aside the US border and Vera Cruz interventions because this is mainly about the Mexicans.
I mention this in case it get a bit "Falklands".. i.e.
"(ideas person) martin can you sculpt some SAS, SBS, marines, US Seals and paras?
(martin) Do you need any Argentinian foot soldiers?
(ideas person). Not really, maybe a pack or two.
Admittedly I do dwell upon the "Mexican" theme.
This is because once US packs begin, folks will want a huge range of US troop and sailors. The Mexicans then become background characters, in front of which the game becomes a US v anonymous natives.
martin
All I've got is the Osprey book (from the Elite range) - Mexican Revolution.
It is okay - brief outline of the wars, armies and some uniform info'.
Nick
I started with the Osprey book...my thought is it is not bad but can leave you a less certain as to who was really on a "side". There really seem to be a number of these factions & it seems they did shift.
There is a US made set of rules that recently came out I bought...and after reading I am not so sure about as rules... but there description of the various factions is really good...unfortunately one can't show them. Will refrain from the name but you can find them if you dig on the Minatures pages site you should find it.
The Blake book "Armies of the Mexican Revolution", put out by Partizan press.....appologies if this has been mentioned before.
Martin I can appreciate what you say about the demand for sculpts tipping to the US.... but a Mexican suggestion... have a look at the picture in the Blake book on pg 17. (Appears to be a deserter manning a colt machine gun on a train with what appears to be revolutionary troops). Seems to sum up much of the period...
Using PP's SCW rules... what an interesting idea....
Bob
I know very little about the conflict so I have ordered the Osprey book 'Mexican revolution ' hoping to throw some light on it.
Stewart
There is lots of information on the internet.
Its a war in many forms with various key players changing sides etc.
With the US dipping in and a flue epidemic to add interest.
I could post the bibliography from the book here? Or some edited highlights.
As it happens, now the books done I do have quite a few to dispose of...
I have looked at some of the battles, internet just seams to give a broad brush overview but I will keep looking.
If the games weekend goes ahead we could discuss new ideas in the evening with a nice glass of rum.
Stewart
Mike,
Where can we get hold of a copy of your book?
Regards
Sean
Sean,
I found details here:
https://www.caliverbooks.com/Partizan%20Press/partizan_MexRev.shtml
Simon
Highly recommended too.
A very simple outline found on the internet.
The Mexican Revolution is one of, if not the most important events in Twentieth-Century Mexican history, completely changing the sociopolitical fabric of society. For over three decades, Mexico had been ruled by what is known as el Porfiriato, in other words, the presidency of General Porfirio Díaz, until he was forced to resign in 1911. Shortly before that, after fixing an election result in 1910, the people were mobilized against Díaz.
During his presidency, Díaz had made many enemies, and his successor was one of them, the liberal Francisco I. Madero who tried to introduce democracy and freedom of press and association. Following such a long lasting period of rule by one person, a political vacuum was created in which different political elites and social groups fought to take power. Madero had enemies on all sides of the political spectrum – some viewed him has too reactionary, and others as too liberal revolutionary – so he was forced to resign alongside his vice president in a coup in February 1913, with both being assassinated soon after. The counter-revolutionary General Victoriano Huerta took over after the coup and ruled in a dictatorial manner until July 1914, when he resigned and went into exile after a series of defeats of his Federal Army.
By this point, Mexico was submerged in a full-scale civil war. A coalition of revolutionary forces would take over the capital and therefore seized power, but not for long as they failed to land an agreement to form a government. The conservative Venustiano Carranza, who had been instrumental in the coup against Huerta in 1913 and had support from the USA, emerged triumphant from the chaos of the civil war, defeating the famous revolutionaries Pancho Villa and Emiliano Zapata along the way. With the signing of the Constitution of 1917, the situation would stabilize for some time. Following the signing of the Constitution and up to 1920, clean-up operations were carried out and agrarian revolutionary leaders were assassinated or imprisoned. The general atmosphere of turmoil and uncertainty benefited radical ideas and banditry alike. The ten years of continuous warfare would leave between 1 and 2 million dead Mexicans, including military and civilian deaths.
Mike, a bibliography would be great.
Did I read (here?) that you're also doing a wargamers guide to the period? If so, when and where will it be released?
Simon
Hello Mike
A very big welcome to the group. Be good to hear your voice on this Mexican stuff especially.
martin :)
Not sure if it has been mentioned but there is a documentary film on youtube 'the Storm that Swept Mexico' - lots of black and white film. I have watched the first twenty minutes which is good on the background. Not sure how easy it will be to bring the war to the tabletop but it should be interesting as it has all the paraphernalia of WW1 but I assume more open spaces. I have to say assume as I know nothing about this war and until earlier this week couldn't even date it. Not sure if it will sell well though! On the other hand there is no competition for figures so an untested market. The advantage of having some figures released before the rules are released is you get plenty of opportunity to use them.
In other words I'm up for some figures when they come out.
Chris
As well as the Osprey introduction and Mike's book, I've been reading;
"Strategy and Tactics of the Mexican Revolution" (Janssens) - he also wrote a more more detailed (4 or 5 volume) study called "Maneuver and Battle in the MR"
"Villa and Zapata" (McLynn)
"The Life and Times of Pancho Villa" (Katz)
Great fictional account of the period is "Tom Mix and Pancho Villa" (Irving) and, of course, you need to watch the (previously mentioned) dvd of "Viva Maria" - I just hope Martin can be persuaded to do an appropriate alternative MG team inspired by the film (maybe as an introductory limited edition?)
This is going well. A fair bit of interest.
I have the Janssenns stuff. Very good but gosh a lot.
Les has got me the Mike book ( thank you Les).
At the moment I am impressed by Stewart's idea of basing a set upon the existing SCW Bayonet and idealogy.
The right number of soldiers on the table. The right tactic and technology period.
Mounted cavalry will need to be considered as they form a frequent mounted force that stayed mounted.
Good to chat but not much action from me at present due to the German paras. Which are coming along well. Probably about 5 packs left to bring out?
martin
Quote from: martin goddard on June 06, 2020, 12:43:36 PM
Good to chat but not much action from me at present due to the German paras. Which are coming along well. Probably about 5 packs left to bring out?
martin
Well there are still 6 empty Para boxes on the website...
I hope we'll still be doing SSPBI before a Spanish-Mexican adventure?
Simon
On the film front there is also And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself, The Wild Bunch and Fistful of Dynamite aka Duck, You Sucker!
I will probably use the original AK47 rules with the 30-30 Carabina variant
A while back I picked up a set of Mex Rev scenarios for A Fistful of lead called Viva Revolucion! Although it is for single 28mm figures I intend to use a base of 15mm figures instead
Shedman, that IS a good idea. I'm planning to do something similar with some tweaks to Osprey's "Men Who Would Be Kings" colonial rules - so the typical infantry unit will have 12 stands of 3 figures (representing a company or a battalion), depending on the scale of the action.
(I also mentioned the planned new range on the MWWBK FB group, and immediately got several very positive comments, which hopefully can be translated into orders in due course)
I see Caliver are also advertising a set of MR rules called "Villa Rides" - anyone know anything about that.
Simon W
I've no idea what it's like, but the Kindle edition of this is just £0.81 on Amazon at the moment:
"The Mexican Revolution: A Captivating Guide to the Mexican Civil War and How Pancho Villa and Emiliano Zapata Impacted Mexico Kindle Edition"
Nick
I think there is a review of those rules on TMP somewhere Simon?
martin
Thanks Martin, I'll take a look - better put on full PPE before venturing into that very strange place though!
Hello Simon
I think wargames illustrated has dome an article on Mexrev resources. Findable on the internet I believe.
martin
Quote from: shedman on June 06, 2020, 01:23:49 PM
On the film front there is also And Starring Pancho Villa as Himself, The Wild Bunch and Fistful of Dynamite aka Duck, You Sucker!
I will probably use the original AK47 rules with the 30-30 Carabina variant
A while back I picked up a set of Mex Rev scenarios for A Fistful of lead called Viva Revolucion! Although it is for single 28mm figures I intend to use a base of 15mm figures instead
Anyone got a copy of this AK-47 expansion? Understandably it is not on the net as far as I can see anymore.
Owaincaesarius,
Actually, I do. I pulled them off the old Yahoo site a couple of years ago for someone who couldn't find them.
Does anyone know if there is likely to be any Intellectual Property issue about my posting them here?
If not, I'll do so. If there is, I'll just mail the 30-30 Carabina documents (rules plus 5 different pre-battle sheets, for the various factions) to anyone who wants them.
Simon
No problem for me.
They were done by Martin Rapier on the understanding that players must own a copy of AK47 in order to be able to use the Mexcianska 36 rules.
I never have a problem with variants. So long as they do not include the original AK rules.
martin
OK great Martin, thanks - I'll sort it out in the morning.
Simon
Actually they are still on the net & available....says right in them...the ak 47 copy must be owned...will send the link to martin for him to review it first.
And several other bits.
Bob
Oops, I was actually referring to Danny O'Haras Mexican Carabin 20-20 variant which appears long gone off the internet. Mexicanski 36 I probably have tucked away somewhere on a drive.
Graham
Actually I was referring to the Danny O'Hara documents too ;)
Here they are - I hope that's OK with everyone.
Simon
In terms of "other resources", there are some photos on TMP from a couple of days ago, of a Pancho Villa raid (skirmish, of course) and close-ups of some nice models:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=532070
Sounds like the group is getting the information gatherers out there.
Good recce Simon.
That resource of Danny fits just fine into the "buy the rules too" mantra I like to push.
thanks
martin
After checking with Martin....from Pat Condrays site....not sure how long these will stay up.
http://www.ebhpc.com/resources.php
Martin Rapier modifications fir SCW...
"Cuadro Golpeando!" (Square Bashing Variant Rules)
"Mexicaski `36". (AK47 Republic Variant Rules)
Bob
Don't want to divert the thread but intrigued by Martin's "buy the rules too mantra" comment. Potentially contentious but not intended to be critical, honest!
I always enjoy PP's refreshingly different mechanisms and period-specific focus in their rules, and I can see how a new set of rules might encourage figure sales for a particular niche period (eg: PITS, Bloody Barons) but I'm wondering whether the time/cost involved is the most cost-effective use of Martin's time (even when rule development and play testing is a team effort)?
Where there are already (multiple?) popular rulesets for a particular period available, would Martin's time be better spent sculpting and master-making? Or are rulesets an important part of the income/profit stream when the man hours involved are taken into account?
It'll be very interesting to see how much support for the MexRev range can be collectively generated by word of mouth, without a dedicated rule set to support it (a first for PP?).
In my (completely different) 'non-essential' consumer goods industry we're having to find new ways of selling profitably in the 'new normal', challenging all the preconceived ideas of how the business model should work, and it's been a really challenging but productive exercise.
Simon W
Quote from: Colonel Kilgore on June 15, 2020, 06:34:00 AM
Actually I was referring to the Danny O'Hara documents too ;)
Here they are - I hope that's OK with everyone.
Simon
Good lad. A mind reader obviously.
Thank you.
Graham
Good questions Simon.
Peter Pig conforms in some ways to standard business models.
In other ways it goes directly against common business models.
Peter Pig's primary goal is not making money (the horror).
The primary goals of Peter Pig are the following.
1.To generate enough income to pay the wages of Mike, Nigel and Julie. That is nice. I have relatively modest financial needs and value other things above mere profit. A luxury I know ; but it is nice to feel good.
2.To create "whole game" concepts. This means making any range we like. Creating rules that are revolutionary. This allows us the ability to explore new ideas and directions without considering the bottom line as the primary. driver. I like that too.
3. To satisfy gamers who have a similar outlook on gaming as we do. I would prefer to create products for a smaller "audience" of co-conspirators than follow a trend that I care not for. I prefer to work with the existing and new play testers whether the outcome is popular or not. It just needs to make the play testers and myself happy.
4.Assuming I have about 6 years left to live (crikey!), I would rather enjoy the people (i.e gaming with them) more than the money.
5. My arrogance (self belief?) makes me believe that we (the play tester group) can create much better rules than any others out there. Mainly because we make what we like to play and damn the torpedoes.
6. Generally I don't like skirmish games, sweeping games that claim to encompass too much, games that need a lot of rule consultation, statistic cards which are all just slight variations of each other, games where major tactical mistakes can be recovered from easily and games that make you the corporal, captain, major and general simultaneously, games that have a single victory (take the bridge) criteria.
7. I personally enjoy gaming immensely (that is why i usually play up to 200 full battles per year, more than most thus rules need replay intellectual challenge ) and want to use rules I enjoy.
The rules i see out there seem to all include one or more of my dislikes. I think Phil Barker's DBA ideas however are terrific. Not much else in the way of gaming rules has gotten me enthused over the last 40 years. That does not mean that there are not brilliant rules out there (Peter Pig rules are not big sellers by any measure) , just that I can afford to indulge my own likes.
At a guess (it is a guess as I have not read them...which does undermine my argument) the current Mexrev rules out there have one or more of the following attributes?
1. Use a 6x4 table or any old size.
2. Have no pre-game. Just set the figures up and shoot each other.
3. Indefinite game length, Just go on until everyone is dead or players run out of time.
4. Deploy the armies at full strength (both sides equal- many gamers really hate PP army reduction for defenders)) on a base line and beat each other to death.
5. Rules list many minor differences in order to give an air of authenticity. Mauser range 12'(carbine only 11"), Winchester range 11" (10" if using poor quality cartridges) and pistol range 2".
6. Players should flip a coin/roll a D6 if one of the many things not covered occurs.
7. Use a mixture of D10, D6, D2 plus a variety of colours depending on circumstance.
8. Little D6 /order markers/puffed out points on the table to record what each unit is up to.
9. Amusing events that can change the whole game . Pancho has eaten a really big breakfast and thus all of his cavalry must leave the table.
10. Templates for artillery explosions. Then roll a D6 to see how far it goes NSEW.
11. Each piece of scenery is literal. Count the number of windows and that is the number of men that can shoot. Players can use a laser to determine if a shot can be had. This includes through woods or other units , so long as no tree or man is touched.
12. Morale has outcomes such as "fall back in a direction that is the appropriate one". "Unit routs, but might come back in a minute". "advance".
13. Game set up = put some stuff on the table (whatever the host has). First one there gets to set it up.
14. Special acronyms . Infantry move IMI (infantry move increments) if moving faster they use IMIA (additions). see chart for IMI and IMIA application sequence for various foot types.
A long reply but good to get that off my chest (again)! :)
martin
I think you've covered the RFCM philosophy nicely Martin. One I subscribe to wholehearedly.
I do hope you stick around for more than 6 years though!
Martin,
I agree wholeheartedly with Sean.
That's a very helpful RFCM "Credo", and I too wish you health and long life!
Simon
Great statement Martin. I like that a lot.
Nick
Thank you brothers.
They will hold their manhood cheap if they are not here! :)
martin
Great philosophy.... so here is more of wishing you long life to spread the good word. (And maybe that new set of casters for the command chair)
Bob
Fascinating insight and a great philosophy - what a radical idea, a figure manufacturer who thinks the rules are as/more important than the figures themselves, rather than a clever marketing ploy to sell more stuff with endless supplements and updates like some we can mention.
And how wonderful to be able to make a business out of something so enjoyable - that's rare but helps if you have a sculpting talent like Martin.
6 more years - I bloody hope not! Or is that just until your next regeneration?
Simon W
Thanks for the good words.
martin :)
I appreciate that most of the discussion has been about the revolution rather than the American intervention but for those interested in the US view, I would recommend "The Great Pursuit" by Herbert Molloy Mason. This starts with an account of the attack on Columbus NM and follows Pershing's subsequent expedition, it includes some nice photographs and a .detailed map of Columbus itself.
First post here and unfortunately it's a sad one.
For those who are unaware Danny O'Hara passed away almost exactly a year ago.
I found out just before last Christmas.
His Carabina 30-30 adaptations for AK47 are part of his legacy.
Neil Patterson
Neil,
Thanks for posting. And welcome to the Forum!
Simon
Neil that is terrible news.
I have not seen Danny for along while but a good man he was.
Would you send me an e mail with details.
Perhaps he should become one of our "figures of fame"?
martin
I only met Danny once on a visit to my parents in Cornwall when I called into his local wargames club. He was very welcoming and seemed a decent guy.
I think he's deserving of a special figure, how about one for the "new" MexRev range?
Best wishes,
Martin Buck
Quote from: martin goddard on July 03, 2020, 05:11:56 PM
Neil that is terrible news.
I have not seen Danny for along while but a good man he was.
Would you send me an e mail with details.
Perhaps he should become one of our "figures of fame"?
martin
Martin,
E-mail sent.
I think a figure would be a great way to commemorate Danny.
He referred to himself as "Mad Dan O'Hara" due to his propensity for "odd" "obscure" or unusual wargames periods.
Perhaps a "Mad Dan" soldier of fortune for the Mexican Revolution like James Coburn in Fistful of Dynamite / Duck you Suckers!
Neil