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Author Topic: Good primer for WoTR?  (Read 212 times)

Radar

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Good primer for WoTR?
« on: July 24, 2020, 12:53:13 PM »
Looks like I might have taken the bait... so any really good (accurate) one volume books to look out for? Web resources?

I know a little about the WoTR, but not a vast amount. Armour - polished or blackened?

Thanks in anticipation
R

Antioch (Bob)

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2020, 02:52:26 PM »
I used to think I generally knew the WOTR history & on starting to read on it again...found I didn’t. (What a confusing period) After that I bought some of the Osprey campaign books (while on sale) on some of the battles...particularly on Towton, which is the one I decided to base my army on.

So here is what I have done on my army....

Good armour books are also hard to come by... by all accounts most armour seems to have been polished...while most is illustrated as plate or partially plate armour you can probably count that some in the lower ranks might ge wearing a piece of hand me down armour modified to fit....but in 15 mm that probably isn’t noticeable.  I choose to do 2 upper class figures in blackened armour.... assuming at least some of them might choose armour from Germany. (Note i have absolutely nothing to base this on other then it was available....for a cost elsewhere)

I also choose to add versions of “fighting jupons” (light cut down surcoats bearing the colours or device of who you fight for....worn over the armour). While I am sure a duke or high lord could summon the women in his district to turn out thousands....I suspect not all would be the same. (Pictures of some of these designscan be found online)

So in my army i have some groups from the duke of somerset, some from the earl of devon & a few from one of the Percy’s.  Banners, heraldric flags.... lots of options there.

On the cavalry.... haven’t gotten there...have no idea yet on how I will paint them.

Last point of consideration.... armour seldom stays shiney & new unless it is cleaned & oiled... so lets take the battle of towton..... after marching in bad weather to intercept each other....in rain (I bet you can see rust alreday) only to fight in a snow storm & then slogging through at least some mud....how bright & clean will your army look now. In my case doing the Lancastrians...so add lots of mud, running away, wading through a few rivers/creeks.  You probably have much liscense on how you paint the period.

But it has been a great deal of fun painting these so far.

Bob

Mike6t3

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2020, 03:52:41 PM »

Last point of consideration.... armour seldom stays shiney & new unless it is cleaned & oiled... so lets take the battle of towton..... after marching in bad weather to intercept each other....in rain (I bet you can see rust alreday) only to fight in a snow storm & then slogging through at least some mud....how bright & clean will your army look now. In my case doing the Lancastrians...so add lots of mud, running away, wading through a few rivers/creeks.  You probably have much liscense on how you paint the period.
Bob

I'm certain they wouldn't have worn armour whilst marching (too uncomfortable). The lords and better off sorts would have theirs carried in carts etc,covered and with servants to care for it. Probably still fairly nice and shiny when they armed for battle.
The lesser folk most likely looked more grotty.

Any chance of posting pictures ? Your collection sounds very impressive.

Mike

Radar

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2020, 04:17:03 PM »
Thanks, any other good books other than Ospreys?


Colonel Kilgore

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2020, 04:25:51 PM »
I know that there has been debate about some of its accuracy, but my first book on the topic was "The military campaigns of the Wars of the Roses" by Philip A. Haigh.

If nothing else, it's written by a wargamer for wargamers and I found it a fascinating read with lots of detail for the major battles and a good way in to the period.

The "correct" answer is of course to look at the bibliography in the latest Bloody Barons rules :)

Simon

Radar

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2020, 05:11:48 PM »
Ah, that would involve buying Bloody Barons. Not made my mind up on rules yet. This all needs a good coat of thinking about. Books can be borrowed from the library (we still have one of those, apparently)

Nick

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2020, 05:20:45 PM »
I agree with Simon - the Philip Haigh book is a great intro to the wars and is enjoyable to read.

Nick

Antioch (Bob)

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2020, 05:26:05 PM »
Radar.... i have recently read quite a bit on the period...but mostly in non dedicated books... a chapter here & there. (None particularly memorable). Simon’s mention of the Haigh book (thanks Simon) will have me looking for it.  And the recomended book list in Bloody Barons (new rules) is on page 77...somehow I glossed over that.  Yes the rules are well worth it.

However let me say I am astounded by the dealings, double dealings, families settling old scores & in general the length & number of battles that went on in this period. History is always filled with hindsight ...but the number of battles one side looked like they were going to win...and didn’t....& later ones they won & maybe shouldn’t...wow

Mike: Good point... perhaps you are right on the travelling but when you have 2 armies on the march looking for each other who knows. Armour takes time to find & put on..

So far I only have 9 units which have bases painted but not finished & no flags or banners....(first order to PP I totally spaced on buying figures for the Retinue groups...save for the standards ?.requiring another order).... on a good day I may be an average painter...certainly not in the esteemed company found here.  But when finished I will post a few pictures.

Lastly if you haven’t seen Graham Turners artwork on the period.... go find his website...well worth it... his work is in some of the ospreys.... simply amazing.

Bob


Colonel Kilgore

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2020, 05:28:22 PM »
Ah, that would involve buying Bloody Barons. Not made my mind up on rules yet.

A heretic in our midst!

Radar

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2020, 07:50:11 PM »
Ah, that would involve buying Bloody Barons. Not made my mind up on rules yet.

A heretic in our midst!

Absolutely


(And thanks for the suggestions so far)

John Watson

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2020, 08:02:40 PM »
Hi Radar,
first let me say that I have a vested interest in this subject, but not a financial one. I am the chairman of the Lance and Longbow Society. The Society was formed back in about 1990 for those interested in Medieval Military History by a group of wargamers and re-enactors. Over the years the Society has published many booklets on the subject of the WotR. Of particular use are the ones on the Banners, Standards and Heraldry of the period as well as the source books (2 of them) which cover all the battles of the WotR. The source books briefly describe the battles and participants as well as maps of each one. The Society also produces a large number of flag sheets (hand drawn, not computer generated). All of these can be found on the Society's website. They also produce their own rules (Poleaxed) but I confess I am not a fan myself.
On the subject of books there are so many out there. If you are looking at battles then I would try to get hold of ones that have been published in the last 5 years as these are likely to contain the most recent research. Both Bosworth and Towton have been re-interpreted recently and there are others like Edgcote and Stoke Field that are still debated. I would suggest that you read a general history first , which will put in context the three periods of fighting and who was involved in each. These are 1455-1464, 1471 and 1485-1487 roughly speaking. Then you can decide if you want to stay general or opt for one of the eras. As for armour the more important the person the more armour and the better kept armour they will have. Most seems to be shiny but some blackened and painted is ok. If you want any more info let me know. Happy to chat.
John

Antioch (Bob)

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2020, 08:33:05 PM »
Thanks for posting John...  some interesting books in there.

Bob

Radar

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Re: Good primer for WoTR?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2020, 09:25:58 PM »
Wow, thanks John.

Armour - higher you are up from the dung heap the shinier the armour perhaps?

Thanks, will take a look. That's probably enough to be going on with for the moment, I shall be in touch if I come up with any more tricksy questions.

In case you don't know I have an ECW blog which as well as pushing my woeful paint offerings also provides an ECW travelogue. Along the way I have also come across a lot of WoTR stuff and battlefields. Back when Adam was a lad, I had an influential history teacher at school who was firmly in the Richard III camp; coupled with our school founder being the historical Lord Mayor of London during the timespan of Shakespeare's play. So it is fair to say that my imagination was sparked, which has been slowly smouldering away.