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Author Topic: The 15 Mill  (Read 1662 times)

martin goddard

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The 15 Mill
« on: November 01, 2018, 06:42:29 PM »
15mm has become the poorer cousin to 28mm.
I think (?)this is due to
1.the emergence of "bang you're dead" quick skirmish games
2. Plentiful supply of high quality 28mm figs including plastics
3.Increased wealth of the wargamer median.

So here is the question.  15mm is great in terms of cost, smaller table size and potential for bigger battles. How d we do our little bit to bring 15mm to wide attention. Of course there are good reasons for all the sizes out there. So the aim is more to inform folk about 15mm than to denigrate other figure sizes.  Of note is the problem we have all had getting magazines to  take in 15mm based articles (less photogenic).

Of course the promotion of 15mm helps PP(yes), but also ensures a future for 15mm manufacturers , rule sets and scenery.

Your thoughts?

Sean Clark

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2018, 09:33:54 PM »
An interesting conundrum.

I think cost is becoming less of a factor in deciding whether to go 15mm or 28mm. A plastic 28mm figure isn't much more than 50p and with the preponderance of the smaller skirmish games played in 28mm, you might only need 40 or 50 figures for a good game (whatever that means).

I do think that the look of the product beats the quality of elegant rules design or content a lot of the time. The glossy magazines like to have lovely pictures of games from shows but which rules set is used to play the actual game is often just a foot note to the display itself.

So for 15mm I think the presentation of the game needs to be aspiring to be giving as much oink for your buck as the larger scales. So nicer terrain, better quality paint jobs on the figures and better photography. When someone looks at a game it needs to grab the attention within those first 10 seconds or so. It doesn't matter if the rules used give the best game you could imagine - if the punter walks passed without a glance or flips past the article never to return - they are possibly lost forever to the newest fad in 28mm.

Just my initial thoughts.

shedman

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2018, 10:11:03 PM »
From our club's view 15mm has become the poorer cousin not only to 28mm but to 10mm as well. I must admit 10mm is the first scale I look at now if considering anew period

Sean raises some very good points - the cheapness of plastic 28mm , skirmish games and terrain. I've not seen any companies producing decent 15mm terrain for a while

For me terrain is a big influence - if I already have terrain in a certain scale then I will look at armies in that scale rather than replicating the scenery in 2 different scales



Noggin

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2018, 11:11:11 PM »
When I started wargaming as a youngster the choice was 25mm or new on the scene 15mm (bar the airfix plastics of course) and cost was the main sway towards 15mm. The other advantage was appearance on the table. You could achieve a big battle feel with lots of figures on the table for a reasonable outlay. I think the advent of 10/12mm figures, many of which are very well sculpted, has provided a real competitor to 15mm in the big battle appearance stakes. The advent of skirmish games like Saga has possibly rejuvenated the 28mm market as one can purchase, paint and be fighting on the table in a relatively short time as only 40 to 50 figures are needed. It certainly got me into 28mm after years of 15mm gaming.

I still prefer big battles in 15mm (or 10mm to be honest) and maybe this is the area 15mm should be aiming at. It just looks better having lots of smaller figures fighting a battle. There is plenty of good scenery out there. Perhaps the magazines need to focus on displaying big battle photos rather than the odd ‘eye candy’ 28mm figure. It is still possible to produce lovely bases with plenty of scenics to complement the figures.

Smiley Miley 66

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2018, 04:58:52 AM »
This is a good question ?
Hence why i started the thread about doing more Gamesdays. If people see our games in action ?
Must admit though, when Team Yankee came out a few years back, i thought great.. then i looked at the scale of the tanks and weapons to be used etc, when someone said its just as easy to play the game in 6mm as the rules stand ! I must admit, yes they are right. ( having a huge 6mm collection helps)
I won't deny that either painting 20mm or 28mm is a lot easier as my eye sight is starting to fade nowadays. There seems to be a lot of "older" wargammers out there these days as well ?

martin goddard

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2018, 09:31:03 AM »
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm ?   More later.

Colonel Kilgore

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2018, 11:41:41 AM »
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm?

That is something that is missing.

But I would imagine (unless someone is already setting one up) that the time, effort, cost, logistics associated with such a venture could be pretty challenging.

Maybe a first step could be some kind of eZine, for which the barriers to entry would be lower?

pbeccas

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2018, 01:11:08 PM »
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm ?   More later.

I would subscribe to that.

I do think wargaming mags are now focused on 28mm produced by the big companies, notably Warlord Games.  They write articles around stunning photos of these 28mm figs in what are really veiled ads.  Even Flames of War barely cracks a mention now.

Stewart 46A

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2018, 01:28:45 PM »
Idea for a 15mm mag would be to make it a free mag available in places like Enjoyment.
Cost of production covered by adverts. Would rely on good articles from the 15mm gaming community.

Colonel Kilgore

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2018, 09:42:54 PM »
One way of promoting 15mm could be to add a strapline stating “The 15 mill” on the PP website :) (just spotted this - nice one!)

Duncan

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2018, 03:15:56 AM »
One problem is that most toy/model stores will stock a certain amount of 20mm (Airfix etc) and possibly 28mm (Warlord etc) but nobody stocks or seems to have access to anything in 15mm. I have asked, several times and am told that despite the large number of online retailers and manufacturers, the suppliers for these stores just will not supply them with 15mm figures even if they want to get them. As a result the ordinary person can get them just as easily as a shop. That does mean though that a new person trying to join the hobby is going into their local shop and is being hit by GW, Warlord, Airfix, Revell etc. Nothing in 15mm at all.
There is a strong 15mm fantasy site going on facebook which usually has several posts a day, quite often from small cottage industry type suppliers on the continent. (It is in English, but seems to be run  by Swedish people I think?) I have never seen an advert for PP figures though even though there is an albeit small fantasy range. Having said that Martin's range is larger than a lot of the small companies that do advertise there.

Colonel Kilgore

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2018, 09:26:50 AM »
Duncan makes a very good point about 15mm visibility on the high street.

6mm probably struggles even more than 15mm in this respect. One initiative (I think originally by Bacchus, but then opened to all) is their annual "Joy of Six" event, for all things 6mm.

It would take some organising (notably choosing a suitable location) for 15mm, but is this something relatively easy to have a crack at, and see whether it catches on?

Duncan

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2018, 09:37:35 AM »
Sounds like it maybe worth a go?

I have also started a thread in the 15mm Fantasy facebook site and already it has several replies agreeing with the general opinion that there is a lack of coverage both in Europe and the USA.

I wonder if the thing at shows is to give people more of what they want? I mean OK we mostly do historical, but Peter Pig and others do stock some fantasy and other manufacturers sci-fi. Would it be that hard to run a game of say Orcs against Dwarves (or humans!) Using the WOR or Dark Ages or even ECW rules? Or a Sci-fi game using the SCW or PBI rules?  OK maybe Martin or so embody may need to add in a couple of spell effects, but how hard is that for a one off game? It may draw more people to the spectacle at a show, maybe not what some of us want to play mainly, but for an odd game and to garner interest could it hurt?

Stewart 46A

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2018, 11:21:20 AM »
From my experience of running Fisticuffs the main problems are Finding a suitable venue that is affordable has enough parking that is reasonably priced. Has enough tables and is able to set them up.
With Fisticufss the Pavilion was about £600 had about 50 tables additional tables from local dealer were £3.80 each. Local car park was £12 for the day. They set up the tables.
The Rembrandt ( 1/2 size of the Pavillion)  last year was £350 room hire had about 20 tables we hired another 30, limited parking but was free. We had to set the ta Les up.
We about provoke even on both events thanks mainly to the bring and buy. So a lot of effort for no reward. No new members to local clubs flat sales for traders (maybe due to internet sales after).
This was a long running show nearly 30 years with strong attendance in the past.
Getting 15mm manufacturers to attend a new show maybe a difficult task in its self.

Duncan

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Re: Promote 15mm
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2018, 11:39:33 AM »
But getting something for people to see and touch in stores would be a good start. New gamers/modellers are not going to buy into something if they do not know it is there.
Most people I would think get into the hobby from an early age, they walk into a toy/hobby store having heard about wargaming and what do they observe? 15mm stuff? No. Therefore they don't think it is available and subsequently do not buy it.

Over on the 15mm Fantasy thread this topic has sparked massive input, 34 replies in around two hours! There are a variety of views, everyone wants more exposure for 15mm, some seem keen to help. If anyone is looking to set something up (publication wise, online or whatever,) and want help it may be worth contacting Mathias at Admiralty Minatures who is an Admin for the forum, it is by invite only you see.

One of the things pointed out is put out there forthrightly by this post which I have copied/pasted from the forum.

"This also came up via Bacchus 6mm about the lack of smaller scales in magazines etc.  Possibly down to the exposure, its easier to have flash looking 28's.  Also, yeah, loads of 15mm centric webstores are pretty trash, sounds harsh, but you can't draw people in on a site that looks like something that was built on an Amstrad." QUOTED FROM 15MM FANTASY THREAD.

It is a general criticism against many 15mm manufacturers and the way they advertise. Whilst I understand why things are often this way, with limited resources and time and finance, often small one or two man operations, maybe this also puts off the casual observer who is looking online to by something, Especially if they are younger and expecting something flash.

I would say that although these opinions are those put forward on a fantasy based website, many of those who post on it are just as much into historical as well, so it is not just the opinion of a certain demographic of the 15mm fan base. Anyway, it has stirred quite a response.