RCFM

RFCM discussion => The 15 Mill => Topic started by: martin goddard on November 01, 2018, 06:42:29 PM

Title: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 01, 2018, 06:42:29 PM
15mm has become the poorer cousin to 28mm.
I think (?)this is due to
1.the emergence of "bang you're dead" quick skirmish games
2. Plentiful supply of high quality 28mm figs including plastics
3.Increased wealth of the wargamer median.

So here is the question.  15mm is great in terms of cost, smaller table size and potential for bigger battles. How d we do our little bit to bring 15mm to wide attention. Of course there are good reasons for all the sizes out there. So the aim is more to inform folk about 15mm than to denigrate other figure sizes.  Of note is the problem we have all had getting magazines to  take in 15mm based articles (less photogenic).

Of course the promotion of 15mm helps PP(yes), but also ensures a future for 15mm manufacturers , rule sets and scenery.

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Sean Clark on November 01, 2018, 09:33:54 PM
An interesting conundrum.

I think cost is becoming less of a factor in deciding whether to go 15mm or 28mm. A plastic 28mm figure isn't much more than 50p and with the preponderance of the smaller skirmish games played in 28mm, you might only need 40 or 50 figures for a good game (whatever that means).

I do think that the look of the product beats the quality of elegant rules design or content a lot of the time. The glossy magazines like to have lovely pictures of games from shows but which rules set is used to play the actual game is often just a foot note to the display itself.

So for 15mm I think the presentation of the game needs to be aspiring to be giving as much oink for your buck as the larger scales. So nicer terrain, better quality paint jobs on the figures and better photography. When someone looks at a game it needs to grab the attention within those first 10 seconds or so. It doesn't matter if the rules used give the best game you could imagine - if the punter walks passed without a glance or flips past the article never to return - they are possibly lost forever to the newest fad in 28mm.

Just my initial thoughts.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: shedman on November 01, 2018, 10:11:03 PM
From our club's view 15mm has become the poorer cousin not only to 28mm but to 10mm as well. I must admit 10mm is the first scale I look at now if considering anew period

Sean raises some very good points - the cheapness of plastic 28mm , skirmish games and terrain. I've not seen any companies producing decent 15mm terrain for a while

For me terrain is a big influence - if I already have terrain in a certain scale then I will look at armies in that scale rather than replicating the scenery in 2 different scales


Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Noggin on November 01, 2018, 11:11:11 PM
When I started wargaming as a youngster the choice was 25mm or new on the scene 15mm (bar the airfix plastics of course) and cost was the main sway towards 15mm. The other advantage was appearance on the table. You could achieve a big battle feel with lots of figures on the table for a reasonable outlay. I think the advent of 10/12mm figures, many of which are very well sculpted, has provided a real competitor to 15mm in the big battle appearance stakes. The advent of skirmish games like Saga has possibly rejuvenated the 28mm market as one can purchase, paint and be fighting on the table in a relatively short time as only 40 to 50 figures are needed. It certainly got me into 28mm after years of 15mm gaming.

I still prefer big battles in 15mm (or 10mm to be honest) and maybe this is the area 15mm should be aiming at. It just looks better having lots of smaller figures fighting a battle. There is plenty of good scenery out there. Perhaps the magazines need to focus on displaying big battle photos rather than the odd ‘eye candy’ 28mm figure. It is still possible to produce lovely bases with plenty of scenics to complement the figures.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on November 02, 2018, 04:58:52 AM
This is a good question ?
Hence why i started the thread about doing more Gamesdays. If people see our games in action ?
Must admit though, when Team Yankee came out a few years back, i thought great.. then i looked at the scale of the tanks and weapons to be used etc, when someone said its just as easy to play the game in 6mm as the rules stand ! I must admit, yes they are right. ( having a huge 6mm collection helps)
I won't deny that either painting 20mm or 28mm is a lot easier as my eye sight is starting to fade nowadays. There seems to be a lot of "older" wargammers out there these days as well ?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: martin goddard on November 02, 2018, 09:31:03 AM
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm ?   More later.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 02, 2018, 11:41:41 AM
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm?

That is something that is missing.

But I would imagine (unless someone is already setting one up) that the time, effort, cost, logistics associated with such a venture could be pretty challenging.

Maybe a first step could be some kind of eZine, for which the barriers to entry would be lower?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: pbeccas on November 02, 2018, 01:11:08 PM
Maybe a magazine devoted to 15mm ?   More later.

I would subscribe to that.

I do think wargaming mags are now focused on 28mm produced by the big companies, notably Warlord Games.  They write articles around stunning photos of these 28mm figs in what are really veiled ads.  Even Flames of War barely cracks a mention now.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 02, 2018, 01:28:45 PM
Idea for a 15mm mag would be to make it a free mag available in places like Enjoyment.
Cost of production covered by adverts. Would rely on good articles from the 15mm gaming community.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 02, 2018, 09:42:54 PM
One way of promoting 15mm could be to add a strapline stating “The 15 mill” on the PP website :) (just spotted this - nice one!)
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 03, 2018, 03:15:56 AM
One problem is that most toy/model stores will stock a certain amount of 20mm (Airfix etc) and possibly 28mm (Warlord etc) but nobody stocks or seems to have access to anything in 15mm. I have asked, several times and am told that despite the large number of online retailers and manufacturers, the suppliers for these stores just will not supply them with 15mm figures even if they want to get them. As a result the ordinary person can get them just as easily as a shop. That does mean though that a new person trying to join the hobby is going into their local shop and is being hit by GW, Warlord, Airfix, Revell etc. Nothing in 15mm at all.
There is a strong 15mm fantasy site going on facebook which usually has several posts a day, quite often from small cottage industry type suppliers on the continent. (It is in English, but seems to be run  by Swedish people I think?) I have never seen an advert for PP figures though even though there is an albeit small fantasy range. Having said that Martin's range is larger than a lot of the small companies that do advertise there.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 03, 2018, 09:26:50 AM
Duncan makes a very good point about 15mm visibility on the high street.

6mm probably struggles even more than 15mm in this respect. One initiative (I think originally by Bacchus, but then opened to all) is their annual "Joy of Six" event, for all things 6mm.

It would take some organising (notably choosing a suitable location) for 15mm, but is this something relatively easy to have a crack at, and see whether it catches on?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 03, 2018, 09:37:35 AM
Sounds like it maybe worth a go?

I have also started a thread in the 15mm Fantasy facebook site and already it has several replies agreeing with the general opinion that there is a lack of coverage both in Europe and the USA.

I wonder if the thing at shows is to give people more of what they want? I mean OK we mostly do historical, but Peter Pig and others do stock some fantasy and other manufacturers sci-fi. Would it be that hard to run a game of say Orcs against Dwarves (or humans!) Using the WOR or Dark Ages or even ECW rules? Or a Sci-fi game using the SCW or PBI rules?  OK maybe Martin or so embody may need to add in a couple of spell effects, but how hard is that for a one off game? It may draw more people to the spectacle at a show, maybe not what some of us want to play mainly, but for an odd game and to garner interest could it hurt?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 03, 2018, 11:21:20 AM
From my experience of running Fisticuffs the main problems are Finding a suitable venue that is affordable has enough parking that is reasonably priced. Has enough tables and is able to set them up.
With Fisticufss the Pavilion was about £600 had about 50 tables additional tables from local dealer were £3.80 each. Local car park was £12 for the day. They set up the tables.
The Rembrandt ( 1/2 size of the Pavillion)  last year was £350 room hire had about 20 tables we hired another 30, limited parking but was free. We had to set the ta Les up.
We about provoke even on both events thanks mainly to the bring and buy. So a lot of effort for no reward. No new members to local clubs flat sales for traders (maybe due to internet sales after).
This was a long running show nearly 30 years with strong attendance in the past.
Getting 15mm manufacturers to attend a new show maybe a difficult task in its self.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 03, 2018, 11:39:33 AM
But getting something for people to see and touch in stores would be a good start. New gamers/modellers are not going to buy into something if they do not know it is there.
Most people I would think get into the hobby from an early age, they walk into a toy/hobby store having heard about wargaming and what do they observe? 15mm stuff? No. Therefore they don't think it is available and subsequently do not buy it.

Over on the 15mm Fantasy thread this topic has sparked massive input, 34 replies in around two hours! There are a variety of views, everyone wants more exposure for 15mm, some seem keen to help. If anyone is looking to set something up (publication wise, online or whatever,) and want help it may be worth contacting Mathias at Admiralty Minatures who is an Admin for the forum, it is by invite only you see.

One of the things pointed out is put out there forthrightly by this post which I have copied/pasted from the forum.

"This also came up via Bacchus 6mm about the lack of smaller scales in magazines etc.  Possibly down to the exposure, its easier to have flash looking 28's.  Also, yeah, loads of 15mm centric webstores are pretty trash, sounds harsh, but you can't draw people in on a site that looks like something that was built on an Amstrad." QUOTED FROM 15MM FANTASY THREAD.

It is a general criticism against many 15mm manufacturers and the way they advertise. Whilst I understand why things are often this way, with limited resources and time and finance, often small one or two man operations, maybe this also puts off the casual observer who is looking online to by something, Especially if they are younger and expecting something flash.

I would say that although these opinions are those put forward on a fantasy based website, many of those who post on it are just as much into historical as well, so it is not just the opinion of a certain demographic of the 15mm fan base. Anyway, it has stirred quite a response.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Leslie BT on November 03, 2018, 05:48:54 PM
Simon the Weymouth group host and runs the WWW weekend which to me is far better than the Joy of Six. And is all about 15mm games usually with PP figures be it is not a requirement to just use PP models.

You play, not watch, around 7 games. If you have stuff to play with, bring it and use it someone else will have figures for the opponent. All the games are played using sets of RCFM rules.  If you speak up before hand you can play almost any rules set, some one will have the stuff for the games. All the games are played with good humour, and experienced players are there to help you. They may be playing a different game and ruleset but this all adds to the fun.

Having helped with shows in Bournemouth for many years the problem all the south coast clubs have in running events is that very few people attend from above the M4 corridor, and half the local area to draw attendees from is water.

The other attraction for the WWW event is that you are there to play, and you get to play games that you may not have the play and you get to try out some of the RCFM rule sets that may interest you but have not played so are unsure if it is a period you want to get into.

Martin also spends a lot of time travelling and playing games with the clubs locally to Weymouth and with the stall at a number of war game shows in the UK, Europe and the US.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 03, 2018, 07:48:58 PM
https://www.facebook.com/SSQezine/

Above link to a small scale quarterly e-zine on facebook, that one chap in the 15mm Fantasy thread gave me a link for it. Seems to deal mainly with smaller scale stuff.
Maybe something li,e this could be done? Not sure if anyone has the knowledge to do it?

People have also suggested doing a YouTube channel with game reports etc. Basically the stuff that bigger 28mm purveyors get up to. I know not all of us are keen to appear in o line videos though.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: martin goddard on November 03, 2018, 08:01:25 PM
Interesting. Thanks for giving the link.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Sean Clark on November 03, 2018, 10:14:43 PM
Les

The Joy of 6 is really a typical wargames show with traders and demo games but with the emphasis on 6mm. Although organised by Baccus, other 6mm manufacturers are invited and all the demo games are 6mm. So it's a very different proposition to WWW.

Now the WWW is for me the best weekends gaming of the year but it is based purely around playing games and not a trade weekend (other than preorders we put in with Martin). Whether a 15mm only show is viable is questionable in my opinion but maybe worth investigating. Joy of 6 does really well but is located fairly central (in Sheffield) allowing punters to travel from all corners of the kingdom relatively easily from the M1. As you say the south coast has to rely on people travelling down from the north with motorway access not always easy.

I am planning a games day at Entoyment and I think in the short term this is something that is relatively easy to do and serves two purposes. It allows us all to get together and play some games and also shows off whatever game we are playing. Whether or not this has any impact on sales for Peter Pig I have no idea but can't hurt!

As everyone here knows, Peter Pig provide all I need for my historical gaming. It covers all the periods I am interested in, and provides a game that looks good that can be played to a finish within a couple of hours. These are the USP's for RFCM and what I try to promote whenever I talk about or demonstrate the games.

Maybe I should make more effort to put on demo games at local shows here in the Midlands?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 04, 2018, 12:12:27 AM
Part of the problem with 15mm is getting the message out and hitting the right target audience.

For example, this morning I posted about this thread over on the 15mm Fantasy thread on facebook and already within 12hrs it has got 60 actual written replies and well over 70 likes. That is around 8 times the amount of response the topic has got on the RFCM forum.

I posted a link to this forum as people were asking what it was as they had never heard of this forum.

So part of the issue is exposure and maybe having a vibrant presence where the people are you wish to attract in.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Sean Clark on November 04, 2018, 07:48:41 AM
There is a line of thinking that forums are now pretty much considered antiquated, particularly for the millennial (or close to it) generation. Social media has taken over with its almost instant gratification. As you have evidenced Duncan, messages in Facebook are seen by a far wider audience far sooner than on traditional forums.

Back in the day the old Yahoo Group would have hundreds of messages per month, over a 1000 on occasion. We probably average not much than 100 with some days only one or two messages being posted.

That's not to say this forum is dead or not serving a purpose. I really enjoy coming here and sharing ideas as well as keep it in touch with my friends in the south. But how attractive the forum is to the younger gemeration or the wider Wargaming community I can't say. I did start a Peter Pig appreciation page on Facebook and Miles has a page too. But not everyone of our generation engages with Facebook or social media in general.

Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Sean Clark on November 04, 2018, 08:02:45 AM
I'm no mathematician but with over 11000 posts during the 28 month lifespan of this forum, we average over 400 posts per month! So my estimate was out. And looking back at the old Yahoo Group I clearly had rose tinted spectacles. On one occasion there were over 1000 messages but 200-400 posts seems the norm. So we're not doing too bad on post count.

I think more interesting is the fact that the majority of the 219 members do not post anything. Engaging the silent majority might be a start 😁
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Sean Clark on November 04, 2018, 08:09:00 AM
39% of members have yet to create a single post on this forum.

Only 7% of members have created 100+ posts.

A further 38% of members have created less than 10 posts.

Most telling of all....4 members have created over 52% of all the posts on this forum. 

Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Leman on November 04, 2018, 08:59:42 AM
I have a facebook page, but have not used it for about four years. I find face book a jumbled mess to look at and have never been able to work out how to use it. Likewise with twitter. I haven’t used that for about four years as it doesn’t really make any sense to me - as well as being full of half-baked rants and poorly phrased, misspelt, grammatically incorrect English. Forums on the other hand usually present material in a simple, easy to read format, and, apart from the number of times I have had to relearn how to post photos, are easy to navigate. Blogs and vlogs are not too bad either, but god preserve us from, “Hi everyone, I’m in (insert appalling fast food joint of choice) eating this (insert photo of equally appalling fat and sugar laden rubbish) - woohoo!!!"
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 04, 2018, 10:04:33 AM
I think the answer to that though is to have something themed and possibly by invite only so you do not get a load of spam. It could still be viewed by others but you would have to be invited to join to post.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: martin goddard on November 04, 2018, 10:23:17 AM
Good statistics Sean. See you are a mathematician!  Although it has been said "there are lies, then there are damned lies and then there are statistics!"

Despite all my enthusiasm for 15mm gaming i do appreciate that you can only lead a horse to water.

I expect that anyone who enjoys games might well be interested in 15mm, should they experience it. 

Here are some broad generalities...sorry.
15mm tends (?) to be used in games which use units, battle plans, limited game length, unit reaction/morale and historical boundaries. I like to make a battle plan and see how it goes. I expect the game to throw "hiccups" to my plan and show my skill by dealing with those hiccups. . I do not like the  game changing reveals  e.g.  "all opponent units test to mutiny, due to the heart of darkness curse".

I don't like it when my plan can quickly be countered by the other army taking a sudden "jump to the right".

Many of the smaller figure number 28mm games require reactions to significant random events(cards) and reaction to each opponent move, allowing instant change to any battle plan. If i only have 25 figures and they can freely get to anywhere they like, then a plan is not needed. I just choose the best stuff and react to the other player, turn by turn. Then throw in a couple of reveals at the right time.
Just line the figures up at each side of the table, with scenery evenly spaced out. Then just go for it! Last man standing! Maybe have a blue flag scenario "whoever has a figure in the pub at game end wins".


Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: martin goddard on November 04, 2018, 10:25:13 AM
With Leman on that one.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 04, 2018, 10:30:55 AM
Sean, thanks for the statistics - I'd not looked for a while.

It could well be that a good portion of "the silent majority" is actually quite happy to watch the goings-on here. I'm conscious that the more prolific posters all know each other or are at least linked to this network through people they have met (well they do now, and the Forum has been instrumental in making some of those introductions, which must be a good thing).

The downside of this could well be that this Forum and much of the banter on it feels "clubby", in an exclusive sense, to others outside of it. I certainly felt an outsider in the old Yahoo group and, while I'd read it regularly, hardly ever posted anything and didn't dare ask questions as I feared they might be seen as silly by those more experienced RFCM folks.

I'm therefore wondering whether others are similarly "lurking" and getting some kind of value from this Forum but either don't feel the need to post anything themselves or would feel awkward to do so.

So, I'd like to make an open request to anyone reading this in that position: do please answer this post and give us your thoughts: and there isn't such a thing as a bad or stupid question!
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 04, 2018, 11:06:18 AM
Despite all my enthusiasm for 15mm gaming i do appreciate that you can only lead a horse to water.

I agree with this, Martin, and 6mm / 10mm / 15mm / 28mm / 54mm are not mutually exclusive.

But I think Duncan's point is important: if people (non-gamers) don't know 15mm is an option, then they're not going to choose it as an entry to the hobby.

So one dimension here must be raising awareness of 15mm existence, and then describing how it can work well for certain types of game.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 04, 2018, 01:22:24 PM
One thing that has been suggested on the facebook forum which may help, although I don't know how to do it as I do not have the contacts, is for numerous 15mm manufacturers (of all types, regardless of if historical, fantasy, sci-fi and so on.) to get together and set up an online hub somewhere so that it could act as a central forum or place for photo gallery etc but also then link to their individual forums and websites. That way anyone landi g on it would automatically have links to every other manufacturer and access to a larger group of people for ideas etc.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 04, 2018, 01:59:11 PM
Martin, Mike and others went to Weymouth Comic-Con and put gam3s on. I believe there was a lot of interest and would come along to the local club but to date no new faces have showen up
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Leman on November 04, 2018, 02:01:20 PM
Now that I have set up a temporary paint station in the living room I find that I am busy painting and basing a mass of PP figures, but they are 3mm ACW. They look really good for the largest battles, whilst my 15mm collection I use for smaller battles which are regimental based. I use two rulesets for the massive battles: Chris Pringle’s Bloody Big Battles and Greg Waggman’s Altar of Freedom. for the smaller 15mm battles I use CWB, Field of Battle 2, Black Powder, Longstreet and Tin soldiers in Action. the rules I use tend to reflect the preferences of my various opponents.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 04, 2018, 02:27:19 PM
One thing that has been suggested ... ... is for numerous 15mm manufacturers (of all types, regardless of if historical, fantasy, sci-fi and so on.) to get together and set up an online hub somewhere so that it could act as a central forum or place for photo gallery etc but also then link to their individual forums and websites.

I think that's a good idea in principle. It would presumably need one of the companies to take the lead, as well as a degree of collaboration between the rival (?) manufacturers. An alternative could be for an individual to take the lead, but they'd need to be either quite altruistic or presumably get some funding from the producers. And of course in any case there's the danger of the "hub"'s direction not being to the liking of all concerned.

I wonder whether Martin could indicate the degree of likely collaboration between manufacturers of 15mm (I'm not aware of much evidence to date, except between Minairons and Peter Pig)?

Another issue could be that some producers are keener to promote their overall brand (especially if they produce in several scales) than to put effort behind 15mm / 1:100 alone and/or support competitors in any way. Hopefully they could accept that the two are not mutually exclusive, but for those who already run their own marketing operation this could be an unwelcome distraction.

So I guess the net-out of this is that such an initiative (indeed any - the above would be valid for a 15mm show too) would all require a large dollop of cross-industry collaboration.

Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 04, 2018, 02:53:22 PM
I think the point was That a lot of smaller cottage industry manufacturers only produce small ranges. One of the benefits of 15mm that had been raised was the ability to take figures and vehicles from numerous manufacturers, (many of which don't produce rules as well,) putting them together to form an army. The thinking being that this would help everyone both manufacturers and buyers.
Obviously there would need to be good relations between companies, or at least no negative ones.
If some of the companies produced a range at a different scale as well then I don't see thatbaana barrier. I am sure we all have armies in more than one scale and although the focus maybe on 15mm, that would not prevent a passing interest in other stuff. Even Peter Pig has items for salemthat are not 15mm as Leman points out.

As Stewart points out we went to Weymouth Comicon, yes people did express an interest, but the opinion seems to be in the club that because new members have not shown up as a result of two historical games at an event that whilst loosely connected was by no means a games show we should not go to that type of event again. To be honest I would have been surprised if anyone had come as a result. It was mostly families at the event. Yes it was good publicity and maybe gets out the word to people with children who are possibly getting to an age where they may go down the somewhat expensive main stream war games route, but that does not mean they will turn up in a few weeks time at the club. It may however get them thinking when someone at their school mentions they got a box of Space marines for Christmas. I think we would need to attend a good few of this type of event to have an impact as well as put on games at the local games store, maybenapproachnthe local Toymaster about supporting a game in store, get their wargaming staff involved etc. Maybe then it  will start to have an impact, in sales even if not at the local club. (I am not suggesting selling at the Toymaster, not that it would be a bad thing.) but they do have a big wargaing throughput of gamers who may only be aware of one or two types of wargame. Would they help? Don't know? But it cant hurt to ask can it?
Title: Why 15mm?
Post by: Sean Clark on November 04, 2018, 04:38:29 PM
1. Because its the scale Peter Pig produce
2. I can play a game in an evening that looks like a battle and not a skirmish
3. I can paint them nicely without having to worry about buttons
4. The scenery is manageable and can look very nice
5. The periods I like are covered in the PP range
6. I stick to one scale so as to not need different sized trees, roads, hills etc
7. Although I'd like to refight Blenhiem I'd have to collect a different scale and there are too many armies I want in 15mm first
8. My friends in the south all play 15mm
9. Martin is a nice chap and I like to support his endeavours
10. I can collect both sides (or more than two in some cases!)
11. An army fits in a 2.5L Really Useful Box quite nicely
12. There's always another unit or army to collect or paint should I fancy a change
13. They are robust and rarely break or bend
14. Anything Martin doesn't produce I can find fairly easily elsewhere (Essex/Friekorps/Lancashire/Xyston)
15. I can take a game to my local club and only need 3 boxes usually (1 per army and 1 for the terrain)
16. I can paint them quickly
17. They don't cost too much

anyone anything to add?
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 04, 2018, 06:05:42 PM
18. Nice sculptures
19. Can be used for other rule sets instead off Peter Pig
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: martin goddard on November 04, 2018, 06:15:22 PM
Thanks for the support.
There must be more.
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Rittervonbek on November 04, 2018, 06:20:45 PM
20. Fantastic painting results can be had with a few cheats and tips.  None of the multiple paint triads here thank you!.
Title: 15mm promotion
Post by: martin goddard on November 04, 2018, 06:50:37 PM
I do have many ideas that do not get to fruition. That is often because ideas are easy, but the time and money to put them into effect costs more.

So here are my first ideas  that includes thoughts given by forum members. Each is a thought, followed by a note.
1. Quarterly. So that enough time can be available. Better to set achievable goals. Keep the project achievable without inflicting stress on poor old martin.
2. Dated, but always available in perpetuity.  Shame to work hard and then it's gone. e.g.  "1/4 of 2019"
3. PDF so folk can read it online or even print it out.
4. Encourage other manufacturers to do self publicity articles. Make sure the articles are likeable.
5.A set of  reoccurring topic titles that can help structure the magazine and prompt input.
6. Keep it all under PP "control".  Stops bickering about purpose.
7. The magazine would not compete or overlap with the forum.
8. Overall mission i sto promote 15mm wargaming.

Some initial ideas for contribution prompts.
Each aspect could have some witty title such as "A battle report"  or "Conversions"

A. My Collection = any 15mm gamer recounts what is in his collection, how they came by it, what they most like  etc.  Given 20 prompt questions. I expect it would be forum members initially. Pictures would be nice.
B. Battle report= a vey common idea for publications but still very interesting.
C. What i painted=Details and pictures of a particular unit or force . How it was researched. What paint techniques. Basing. Characteristics in battle.
D. Conversions= head swaps and  using figures for non-intended purpose. This includes painting differently, chopping, swapping and other mods.
E. Scenery= making, painting converting. From the table  to the buildings, trees etc.
F. New products. New product that is specifically used for 15mm albeit originally intended for other sizes.
G. manufacturer profile. Details of a manufacturer who does 15mm stuff. They can pen it themselves, be visited or a neutral arms length review to which many might contribute.
H. Trivial stuff like   a recommended book, paint, accessory...
I. Visits= an article by someone who ha been somewhere and seen something.  Museum, re-enactment
J. Where is 15mm= Reports on which games are played using 15mm figures and where they were seen. Maybe with a single comment.
K.History of unit=the story of a gaming unit from inception through the wars etc.
L. Chat with a manufacturer about what they are working on in 15mm.
M. My table=  pictures and article about a person's 15mm gaming area.
N. Useful stuff such as discussion about 3D CAD, printers, tools, putties and other stuff related to creating figures, scenery, websites, flags and gaming aids.

This list is only a starting point to help folk write articles. To help contributors i would give each category about 17 prompt questions, if it helps them assemble their thoughts and make the task less daunting.
Articles can start at say 100 words and a picture. Rising to more words and more pictures. Maybe a whole page?  Because the magazine is intended to be useful, there is no need for pictures to be posed eye candy. Rather to show normal figures in use by the common man.
No paid advertising, but companies can put limited amount of stuff in for free.


Each edition about 10 pages. Downloadable from PP website and links given to other folk who want to be involved.

This is just a bunch of thoughts.  Comment??

Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: martin goddard on November 04, 2018, 06:51:45 PM
Good idea martin.  "The 15 Mill"
Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 04, 2018, 07:02:28 PM
Good idea Martin but you may get overloaded with articles, may be theme each edition to a period
Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: Leslie BT on November 04, 2018, 07:34:55 PM
No good films tonight in Weymouth?
Title: Promoting 15mm
Post by: Leslie BT on November 04, 2018, 08:12:03 PM
This thread is promoting 15mm rather than a 15mm promotion?
Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: Sean Clark on November 05, 2018, 12:16:41 AM
I used to really enjoy the Peter Pig newsletter that ran for 3 or 4 issues.

I would be happy to contribute 'news from the Midlands'

If the Viking campaign got off the ground it would make a good article.

A short write up on our game days would be nice.

This sounds good Martin, a really positive step.
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on November 05, 2018, 04:32:50 AM
The PP figures are the best around at this scale.
My Team Yankee British is mainly US Marines converted (hairy helmets) to look like mid 80's British as they are sooo much better than FoW figures.
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Leman on November 05, 2018, 06:53:41 AM
21. Completeness of ranges.
22. PP makes conversions easier, even with other manufacturers’ figures.
23. Unusual/marker figures often not available in the smaller scales, eg. PP ammo carriers, civilians, ECW medics, Matchlock’s ECW general in a sedan chair, surgeon and patient.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Leman on November 05, 2018, 06:55:10 AM
I’m playing another 15mm game today - C17th Poles v Ottomans.
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Sean Clark on November 05, 2018, 09:38:55 AM
That Sedan chair looks lovely. Radar has one painted up on his blog.
Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: martin goddard on November 05, 2018, 10:02:49 AM
Well, I will mull it over and give out sit reps!
Title: Re: Why 15mm?
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 05, 2018, 10:25:25 AM
24. The figures and scenery (particularly with the current trend for base cloths) take up far less sotrage volume than larger scales.
Title: Re: 15mm promotion
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 05, 2018, 10:29:38 AM
Isn't much of the proposed content stuff that RFCM members would post under existing headings on this Forum?

Meaning that we could get a double-whammy by encouraging to scribe here accordingly, with the most appropriate posts being included in any PP ezine?
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Duncan on November 05, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
Maybe, but you may get input from other manufacturers of either figures or scenery etc, or people interested in fantasy and sci-fi 15mm stuff who may not post here as this forum tends to be more or less entirely for historical wargaming.

It would be important I think to spread the word and maybe add links to other forums to entice contributions. But it could be a good thing.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 05, 2018, 11:25:29 AM
Duncan: agreed - I was trying to suggest that this Forum could generate content for inclusion in a publication produced by, and destined for, a wider 15mm readership.
Title: Re: Promote 15mm
Post by: martin goddard on November 05, 2018, 01:42:37 PM
Yep, agreed.
Title: Rules in the magazine
Post by: martin goddard on November 07, 2018, 04:47:32 PM
Assuming that the 15Mill magazine will happen. Do form members rather like a little mini set of rules, or are you not too bothered either way.   Thinking of a complete set of rules that covers a very , very specific situation. e.g an 18th century pistol duel (that was my first idea if it would be well received).  Then forum members could produce their own little rulettes (not Rubettes) ?  The focus is on very very specific military actions  e.g climbing a siege ladder, ACW sniper, crossing a minefield with a bayonet for detection, rear gunner in Lancaster bomber etc...
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Duncan on November 08, 2018, 01:55:31 AM
I would not object to rules being in the magazine as it should be for everyone, but i would prefer the focus to be on who is producing what minatures, both manufacturers and individuals conversions and overviews of people's armies and/or scenery.
So whilst i would prefer to not have rules i do not overly object to it, just not what i want the main focus to be on.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 08, 2018, 08:56:14 AM
The rules sound fun, but I agree are probably not essential. Maybe more fundamentally, how do they help promote 15mm?

A pistol skirmish would be a 2-figure fight? Probably not the best showcase for the 15mm effect? Or for selling boxes of PP figures?

I guess I'm just a little confused.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Duncan on November 08, 2018, 09:10:50 AM
I guess it depends on our focus. I know (You just have to look at the maths thread.) that Martin likes rules and everything maths, therefore would want to include that. I imagine a few others are that way inclined so to be inclusive there is no harm. But as you say that is, whilst marginally interesting, not looking at the models that are on offer.
From my own perspective i would buy a huge army to pai t and model and not ever worry about buying rules, if it was just down to me as i have very little interest in gaming, as opposed to the collecting side of the hobby. The appeal of 15mm is to be able to get a reasonably large army together that does not take up much space for storage.
Now, when i was younger and collected GW stuff, i would buy a codex as it was crammed full of nice pictures of painted, built, converted models i could draw inspiration from. I used to glance through the background information to get an idea and feel for what i was building, but would ignore all the rule and stat bits entirely. Also although i had all the codex, annuals and compendiums etc, for the same reason, it NEVER once occurred to me to buy a rulebook as it held zero interst for me.
So, it depends what you want from the magazine. As you know, i want nice pictures crammed full of PP minis as well as those of other manufacturers, historical, fantasy and Sci-fi; not to mentions people own personal armies. But i accept that there maybe a certain amount of rules and stats so as to appeal to everyone.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: pbeccas on November 08, 2018, 10:08:59 AM
How about a scenario for one of the RFCM rulebooks.  Like a specific Square Bashing battle, or a Western skirmish.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 08, 2018, 11:25:38 AM
How about a scenario for one of the RFCM rulebooks.  Like a specific Square Bashing battle, or a Western skirmish.

That is an excellent idea. Not only (hopefully) of interest to readers, but also something that could promote the rules and drive sales of figures. Ideally, there would be the scenario, and then a report of an actual game, replete with (attractive) photos!
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Duncan on November 08, 2018, 12:06:20 PM
Can we just clarify, are we thinking the magazine is going to be an online or pdf one or will it be an actual in print one, or will we have a choice ofcwhich format to get it in?
Personally I'd like to have one printed, an actual physical thing to hold and read through, but i presume that would be more expensive? What sort of cost are we looking at per issue anyway?
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Leslie BT on November 08, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
Duncan you can print a couple of A4 in *.pdf pages, to get your printed copy.

More to the point who is going to have editorial control?

You have a battle report of a 'War in the Age of Magic' game that's 10+ pages with photographs. Who's going to control what's in each issue and how often it is published?
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Leman on November 08, 2018, 03:48:02 PM
Whatever happens don’t let a committee decide. This is one of those areas where democracy is fatal.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 08, 2018, 04:32:01 PM
Whatever happens don’t let a committee decide. This is one of those areas where democracy is fatal.

I think Martin can play a good Autocrat  ;)
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: martin goddard on November 08, 2018, 06:23:37 PM
Apparently, the most important thing is to get the trains running on time.

Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on November 08, 2018, 07:11:24 PM
I think it should be shared between Martin and Les ?
Inclusions of mini rules and scenarios is a good idea. Covers those little things we can't cover  in the bigger rules, but can play on our own tables. ACW snipers great idea !
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: martin goddard on November 09, 2018, 12:11:36 AM
The plan (so far ) is this?
About 10 pages (min). No real upper limit
About 5 articles.
Probably pdf.
Free of charge
martin in charge
publish quarterly
back issues always available
download from PP website
Lots of pictures. Mostly of normal stuff. they pictures do not have to be just aimed at impressing the looker. More about informing.
Some regular features
15mm focused.
Readers only have to read the articles that interest them.
Will include some non PP stuff in terms of review, use, promotion etc.
Called "the 15  Mill"

All is in the discussion phase at the present.  Each edition might change completely in format etc.

I do not have the time(putting it into pdf , then job is done) , money (lots of wasted copy. cost of print and distribution) , confidence (it might be unpopular) or patience(dealing with people who know how it should be done and suggestions of how i could spend my time) to print and distribute.


Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 09, 2018, 09:18:04 AM
The sounds like a most excellent plan, Martin.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: martin goddard on November 09, 2018, 09:24:00 AM
Thanks 
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Stewart 46A on November 09, 2018, 02:14:58 PM
Sounds good Martin, I’m available if you need assistance
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Leslie BT on November 09, 2018, 06:08:00 PM
Great ideas Martin.

The Wargamers Newsletter, big shoes to fill!

It only ran for 18 years.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: sjwalker51 on November 09, 2018, 08:56:41 PM
I’d stick with a slightly expanded and more widely distributed version of the newsletter you used to do about 5 years ago, including short articles that might make people realise the potential of 15’s:

How to do headswaps on 15mm figures
Proxies for Campaigns not yet covered/reviews of all ranges available for specific campaigns.
How ‘skirmish’ games like SAGA or Sharp Practice look great when you substitute a stand of 3-4 15s instead of the single 28’s usually seen.

It’s often mentioned on CoC and Bolt Action forums that 15mm figures are perfect for the rules’ ground scale but the vast majority of players use 20/28mm because they’re unaware what’s available out there in 15mm - and social media offers great opportunities for smaller (!) manufacturers to reach a much wider audience at relatively little cost.

Look at the number of times Perry’s or Warlord (each with 20k+ followers) post ‘stuff’ on FB, not necessarily product or sales related. Very often it’s accounts of games played on great looking tables with nice figures. Khurasan (3k) is very active there but most 15mm manufacturers have less than 1k followers. Got to ask yourself why and how this can be changed.
Title: What is 15mm?
Post by: Duncan on November 10, 2018, 07:59:22 AM
A simple question and one i know we have touched on before in other topics, but maybe with all this trying to pro ote 15mm at the moment it is worth revisiting?

On investigation it seems that the main two definitionscare that it is either that 15mm is the height from ground it stands on, (i.e. where the feet come out from the base.) to the top of its head, or similarly from the ground to eye level, which can make actual figures more like 18mm or even 20mm tall at times.

It seems that at some point in the last 15 or so years the height measurement for most figures regardless of scale has switched from the top of head to the eye level and as such we have had a lot of scale creep. For example we used (when i was a lad.) to getva lot of 25mm figures, but over time these became 28mm and now it seems that is being mainlyvdiscarded in davour of 32mm, small changes that by and large one could overlook, if you had a single, two or three 28mm figures in a mainly 32mm force etc, but when you have some 25mm ones they look ridiculous.

Now i know that not all humans (and one presumes elves, orcs etcvas well?) are not all one height and a variety in a line can make it look more realistic, but that depends on  what ghe figures are doing. For examle a 25mm barmaid may fit well in a diorama with mainly 28 or even 32mm soldiers, but then she is carrying beer, not a gun and a 25mm Brenn Gun is a whole lot smaller than a 32mm one. Some ghings you can get away with or on occasion are even desirable but not all.

So with thev15mm, going back to that, what do we like? I have in my collection for Western some Old Glory figures, whichbalthoughba little bigger, in the themevsit nicely alongside thd PP ones, but again, the weapons are not standardised in the Western theme with every Tom Dick and Cedric bringing whatever pistol or rifle or rock they could afford, so it does not matter. If this was WW2, then whilst the heightvdifference in men may not be that bothersome the different sized guns would!

We then also need to look at the Normal V Heroic so called scale. Many fantasy and sci-fi (and FOW.) figurex i find are a little oddly proportioned, sometimes it is done well, other times not so much. Do we prefer Heroic or Proper proportion  in our little men or figures in general, regardless of sex?

Thoughts on this? (Or am i mi dlessly waffling for no reason?)
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Sean Clark on November 10, 2018, 08:53:20 AM
Agree that for this venture, print would be out of the question. Of course readers can choose to print the off to read wherever they wish.

I shall get my thinking hat on for a possible article.

Well done Martin!
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Sean Clark on November 10, 2018, 08:58:54 AM
Can I echo the point about the old newsletter. Whilst Pp specific I really enjoyed it. An expanded updated version of that would be great with final editorial control bèing Martin's. Imagine a fairly RFCM centric bias to the articles but I know that some members use other ranges so there could be the wider inclusion of other companies equipment 

The Facebook thing us interesting. Maybe a push with that would also help. I'd be happy to try something and spread the oink.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: sjwalker51 on November 10, 2018, 09:22:01 AM
Sean, you reminded me of a good point. Look what Rich Clarke has achieved in building up the Too Fat Lardies ‘community’ despite being essentially a 1-man band: multiple (and active) FB groups for each of his core rules, gaming days dedicated to TFL rules across the country etc , high profile in the hobby press, both online and print - look at the multiple threads discussing the relative merits of CoC and BA on TMP.

Look at what Pete has done at Baccus to push the benefits and value of 6mm historicals, or Leon at Pendraken for 10mm - even more niche scales compared to 15mm, I suggest. I remember when 15mm was actively promoted as the ‘sweet spot’ between 25mm and 6mm offering well sculpted and varied figures, mass appeal and value for money compared to the others, but that’s not so evident these days, though most of those arguments remain relevant to this day.

What are the 15mm manufacturers doing to cooperate and push back against the resurgence of 25/28mm in the last, what, 10 years?

The old argument that 28mm demo games are more eye-catching at shows or in magazines just isn’t so relevant these days - these days, the vast majority of gamers are inspired to try new periods, scales etc by what they see online, not at shows or in print, where the actual size of the figures is far less important -massed 15mm battalions look just as good as 28’s (or far better when that battalion is 48 15’s rather than 12 28s!)
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Leman on November 10, 2018, 12:11:32 PM
I have never subscribed to the eye-catching aspect of 28mm at shows. Usually the displays are on something like an 8x6, often surrounded by hunched up men unwilling or unable to make eye contact and talk about their game. The sheer size and effort that goes in to their creations puts me off, even though I do do some 28mm gaming. My 28mm games are never on that scale and I wouldn’t be able to manage that anyway. I am usually attracted to 15mm, 10mm and 6mm games at shows. I have even seen some beautiful 2mm games, which inspired me to develop my 3mm ACW land battles (currently painting more of these as they can be easily accommodated in my temporary painting corner). The sheer spectacle of what can be achieved on a 6x4 or smaller with 15mm armies and well-produced terrain can not only be very inspirational to a novice, but also appear achievable. Take a look at the 15mm photos in Warlord’s Glory Hallelujah ACW scenario book.
Title: Re: What is 15mm?
Post by: Leman on November 10, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
It is a very valid point, especially as I have used some QRF figures to fill in some of the gaps in the WWI PP range, and they are definitely slightly different. The most noticeable is the kilted machine gunner set where the QRF maxim is less bulky than the PP model. However, the QRF figures are 15mm in the same way that PP are. Then along comes the like of Blue Moon - these are definitely not 15mm and do look odd when mixed in with 15s.
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 12:28:57 PM
I’d stick with a slightly expanded and more widely distributed version of the newsletter you used to do about 5 years ago, including short articles that might make people realise the potential of 15’s:

How to do headswaps on 15mm figures
Proxies for Campaigns not yet covered/reviews of all ranges available for specific campaigns.
How ‘skirmish’ games like SAGA or Sharp Practice look great when you substitute a stand of 3-4 15s instead of the single 28’s usually seen.

It’s often mentioned on CoC and Bolt Action forums that 15mm figures are perfect for the rules’ ground scale but the vast majority of players use 20/28mm because they’re unaware what’s available out there in 15mm - and social media offers great opportunities for smaller (!) manufacturers to reach a much wider audience at relatively little cost.

Look at the number of times Perry’s or Warlord (each with 20k+ followers) post ‘stuff’ on FB, not necessarily product or sales related. Very often it’s accounts of games played on great looking tables with nice figures. Khurasan (3k) is very active there but most 15mm manufacturers have less than 1k followers. Got to ask yourself why and how this can be changed.

I think that there are some great ideas and themes here.
Title: Re: What is 15mm?
Post by: martin goddard on November 10, 2018, 01:06:14 PM
My initial thoughts are ; if a company calls its stuff "15mm" then it is a good candidate for the "15mill". If it calls itself "18mm" then probably not. Of course this still allows for a lot of approximation, but that can be said in the reviews or by the company themselves. It is the statement "15mm" that matters most of all. I would also say that many items not specifically labelled 15mm can be included in the magazine if they help 15mm players.




The companies that would be "uninvited" would be those that are rude (editorial team judgement), dishonest (do not comply with consumer laws) or we find annoying (having had a chance or two to sort their heads out).
The 15mm Mill would have an unashamed bias toward PP and not pretend to be a mouthpiece for all 15mm producers.



Marie Antoinette was the 15th out of 16 children.  That is hard work. :)
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: martin goddard on November 10, 2018, 01:25:23 PM
Another little reveal.  Seeing as how all are very keen on rules in the magazine. A special pack now and again, that can be bought well ahead of the rules publication.  What I mean is (a totally fictitious example)
1. A pack goes on sale called "warrior challenge".
2. The rules called Warrior challenge gets published a month later or so.
3. The pack contains 8 figures drawn from other PP packs. 
4. The rules , of about 1 page, are published and use the contents of the warrior challenge pack.
5. Owners of the special pack paint the soldiers and play the game  few times.
6. The special pack then just blends into existing player armies or sits in a special little box (aways little) to be gotten out at Christmas or birthdays.  possibly also if a club meeting was only 30 minutes?
7. This is an idea that has never been done before. Well, not since Pharaoh sent out a chariot wheel to each of his commanders and insist they run around shouting "wheel all be fine". No, didn't catch on then either!


You order the special pack. Maybe it comes with a special backing card. Paint the little men. Get the rules from the 15 mill. play the game many times. Adjust the rules and feed back improved versions to the 15Mill. (see how the title works?). Also send in reports of how  your improved (don't worry i will not be offended) version works but it mist have a picture or two too to to.

One new game per quarter. All trivial . All  fun (if you are a wargamer).  All achievable in terms of paint time, play time  and feedback.

Another great idea which may well happen!!?

Are you exited?

Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Duncan on November 10, 2018, 04:07:08 PM
Strange how we interpret what we read, i was reading through thinking the exact opposite and what a relief it wax that people wanted the focus to be on minatures and not rules.

Still, that aside i do like the idea of small character packs being put out every so often with short, sharp rules to back them up. Maybe it could be used to test the waters for potential larger projects if they prove popular. Things that we have discussed many times. I could think of many small halfva dozen or so figure games based around scenarios like, Robin Hood, Highway men/women, Western street fight, some sort of sci-fi car chase, (on small rolling board.) WW1/2/cold war spy type scenarios; the things we could think of are possibly limitless and many of us will have enough supporting scenery already.

Perhaps a couple of battle reports from the previous month could feature in the next magazine so people can see how it turned out and maybe discuss updates or further options for enjoyment!

As it is getting near Christmas how about kicking it off with a Santa, elf, reindeer type game?
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 04:32:28 PM
Lots of good stuff there, Martin and Duncan.

I do like the idea of a "special pack", and the chance to actually paint the little men before the rules come out. And this could also whet appetites for the painting of larger forces by subscribers.

So, I've not yet exited the conversation, and am indeed excited :)
Title: Re: Rules in the magazine
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 04:36:03 PM
Also - when we think about "15mm", shouldn't we also be considering and including the manufacturers of terrain (scenery, building and mats, etc) and other relevant paraphernalia (gaming aids - such as Warbases - and maybe raw materials for scratchbuilding)?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on November 10, 2018, 05:14:41 PM
I would say so, articles about scenery and setting the scene/table would be good. Maybe a how to make X, Y and Z every now and then. Also links to online scenery makers websites especially lo al ones, places you can buy supplies and what they have, not just tbe obvious places either.
What about interviews? We could interview the proprietors of local businesses selling wargaming and model making stuff?

Ps. Has this been amalgamated or am i loosing the thread here?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 05:25:08 PM
Duncan - no, you're not losing the thread at all - I took the liberty of merging several discussions around this topic, and also made it "sticky" on this board. I'm delighted someone has noticed!

And I like the idea of "how to make" 15mm stuff articles. There's lots on 28mm in the glossies, but I think there is an art to making suitably-sized 15mm terrain, which goes beyond simply scaling down 28mm stuff.

Some of the denizens of this Forum (and I'm thinking of the likes of Sean, Stewart, Miles, and of course you yourself, Duncan) have produced some very "15mm-appropriate" scenic pieces, and I for one would welcome articles on their production in "The 15 Mill". Assuming the Editor-in-Chief approves, of course!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 05:27:40 PM
If The 15 Mill is soliciting articles from contributors, we will probably need some guidelines on length / style / tone / content.

Editing material can take an age, so I'm thinking it will need to be as "production-ready" as possible.

Those of us who have had articles published in the "glossies" will have been through this process and can probably pull some initial thoughts together if needed.

Do you have any views on this, Martin?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Radar on November 10, 2018, 07:35:55 PM
Some special rules for RoF covering superstition and plague would be great. Would give the plague wombles a purpose.
I'm not suggesting the illegitimate child of RoF and D&D, more some morale tests of units entering built up areas - a witch lives here, so your troops refuse to go near; village has the plague, troops can't enter unless plague wombles have been deployed.

Although Martin would have to  sculpt a witch or two, maybe a witchfinder too. (Would also have a cross over for those wanting to play Witchfinder General in 15mm)
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 10, 2018, 08:07:33 PM
Good to see  the sparks flying! Well done.
If it goes ahead, the first issue would be out in January. This is the first quarter of 2019.
I am happy/hoping  for the production value to be a bit "human". By this i mean that it is for the common man.

Painting
The painting can be of everyday quality. If someone paints really well then all the better. I would like to see figures that are painted and used for games , not intimidating examples  of brilliance.
Articles
Any length really. No need to make them too professional. Someone (a master of the universe) will check it for basic spelling and good taste. Apart from that anything goes. Folk write an article and it gets published.
If an article has no pictures then that is fine too.
We will all have to be careful with copyright material lifted from another site or company site.


The watchword will be "achievable".   The 15Mill would still need to be put together after a year or so, when enthusiasm has died down.

In addition it will need the weather "I am not going to do an article, but you should do it how i like it", "this magazine is not up to my own exacting standards", "why is there an article there which does not interest me", " Top gear spends more than you do on staff expenses", "it was all my idea", "can you reduce the price", "why don't you (insert time consuming activity) that i have suggested it (took me 11 seconds) , all you need to do is spend hours putting it into action. I can't because I am busy", "use QuarkXpress, it only costs money".

This is intended to dampen any enthusiasm to  realistic targets.
The 15Mill will not have and does not need an initial   wide circulation. It needs to develop into a reliable and comfortable magazine that will not wear out it's contributors, assemblers or readers.

It's strengths will be "Down to earth format/content", "much needed 15mm focus", "variety" , " feeling of I could do that" and of course the cache of reading a magazine designed by very ordinary gamers for very ordinary gamers.  Plus of course the industrial might of PP and RFCM.

What the 15Mill will not have. Outdated man stereotypes of "her indoors", "drinking lots of beers", "having served on the Russian front" , "my 10 x 12 proper sized man table"and "serious wargamers".  Instead as much as possible will be done to cater for both genders, varying wealth, varying time  allowance, varying paint skill, varying period interests  varying ages. These things are worth catering for, albeit that will be difficult at times.


Not intending to have any unfunny cartoons at this stage either.

15Mill will be about playing games with 15mm figures as the primary function. Other stuff will enhance and support that function.
A long post here, but thought it unfair to raise expectations to unrealistic levels.



 
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 08:16:02 PM
Excellent - that pretty much covers things for the guidelines, then!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 10, 2018, 08:28:54 PM
Job done Simon
Next?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 10, 2018, 08:31:18 PM
Duncan the size of figures, how and where you measure to is a discussion as old as war-game figures.

Look back to the Airfix and early war-games and modeling magazines.

Is has more to the style of the figure than any exact measurement.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 10, 2018, 08:34:17 PM
Radar.

I look forward to play testing your additions to ROF.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 10, 2018, 08:36:15 PM
Duncan.

I am looking forward to reading your article on the production of snow terrain as was done for the last big PBI game.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Radar on November 10, 2018, 08:56:26 PM
Radar.

I look forward to play testing your additions to ROF.
My additions ? :o
It was an act of managerial blue sky thinking. Surely the industrial behemoth that is the Peter Pig Empire® has 'people' to do such things?  ;)
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 10, 2018, 09:35:32 PM
My additions ? :o
It was an act of managerial blue sky thinking. Surely the industrial behemoth that is the Peter Pig Empire® has 'people' to do such things?  ;)

Which is precisely how you've just earned yourself an invitation to author said piece  8)
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Radar on November 10, 2018, 09:46:10 PM
Bum!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: sjwalker51 on November 10, 2018, 11:30:51 PM
“My initial thoughts are ; if a company calls its stuff "15mm" then it is a good candidate for the "15mill". If it calls itself "18mm" then probably not. Of course this still allows for a lot of approximation, but that can be said in the reviews or by the company themselves. It is the statement "15mm" that matters most of all.”

Sorry but I think that would be counter-productive: real “People’s Front of Judea “ stuff. As previously mentioned, the whole ‘scale/size’ debate has been going on for 30+ years, and if you really want to challenge the 25/28mm bias of the hobby, then the 15/18mm manufacturers can not afford to get ‘cliquey’ or ‘sizeist’.

By all means point out that PP, OG and BM figures aren’t necessarily going to look good alongside each other, definitely have a PP-bias in the new newsletter (or what ever you decide to call it) but don’t hesitate to praise ‘competitors’ when they cover a period well, especially when there’s no conflict of interest with PP ranges.

And, if 15mm is going to gain any traction, it’s essential to push ranges for Wars that are not currently well covered in the scale and/or which lend themselves to ‘bigger battles’ that just don’t look good in the larger scales but which also feature enough smaller actions that encourage characterisation where the mass appeal of 6/10mm is not so apparant - hence my requests for a WW1 Africa range extension, Arab Revolt or Mexican Revolution packs, for example.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on November 11, 2018, 06:44:10 AM
 Thinking caps on then.

1. Do we have regular sections? So Editorial, news, battle report of the month, new releases?
2. Or just whatever people feel like producing and a more ad hoc approach?


I like the idea of a mini game, with a pack of figures to paint and small set of rules to develop. Lots of possibility. French Indian War, Robin Hood, Mexican Revolution....its endless really.

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on November 11, 2018, 09:26:24 AM
There should be a structure, a backbone of said articles that will make a regular appearance ? Then an allowance for and ad hoc articles to appear ? But knowing Martin this is already under control !
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 11, 2018, 10:03:57 AM
The 18mm matter is important.  Certainly worth discussion. Here are my thoughts for what they are worth.


The 25 to 28mm size was made by Foundry/Perry in order to create a new market that excluded others. In that case all the other (bar a few) companies instantly re-named their figures as 28mm. Dixon were 25mm in June but 28mm in July.  A seeming waste of time for the 28mm inventors then?

Those companies  that chose 18mm did so purely to diminish 15mm. They wished to create a new size that folk could not mix with the existing 15mm companies. Their splitting of 15mm has caused a lot of damage to both 15mm and their new size of 18mm.

PP figures certainly vary in size. PP figure  ranges are complete, in that other company products are not vital. An additional option yes, but not vital.  So we could have gone with 17mm or 16mm but chose not to, in order to preserve a wide ranging 15mm industry. An holistic approach that looks to the future benefit to many?

The choice of 18mm is much much nearer to 20mm than 15mm. It is 20% larger than 15mm. It is 10% smaller than 20mm.  Therefore they need to be promoted by 20mm forums.

Of course they might start re-naming their stuff 15/18mm in order to get more customers and backtrack.
But it remains the case (as i see it)  that these folk are trying to diminish 15mm sales in order to enhance their own.
If players build a 15mm army and mix PP, Essex, minifigs et al, then I think that all benefit. If a new company comes up with better figures in 15mm than PP, then players can buy those and upgrade their armies.

It is common for makers to design their products so that you have to buy it all over again at regular intervals (GW?, FOW etc). PP products allow a player to use their existing items to play the games as those games are re-vamped.

I prefer to state 15mm as being a worthwhile size. Thus encouraging new companies to launch ranges called 15mm, rather than muddy the waters and confuse potential gamers. If we do not promote 15mm then 18mm just confuses gamers and deflates the interest in "those guys that cannot make their minds up about what size they are making".

Others may feel differently and that is as it should be.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 11, 2018, 10:10:50 AM
Miles
All is fluid . This will help the magazine be easy to put together. It would be better to put in four battle reports and not have a scenery article, rather than force an ad hoc scenery article and put in one battle report to maintain format.
The major problem with this project is to keep it rolling forward after all the initial enthusiasm has found other directions of travel.
If it survives a year then that is most promising.
Once again the watchword is "pragmatism". Do see my previous notes on potential nay-sayers.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on November 11, 2018, 10:18:42 AM
Shall we get writing? I'm in my research phase at the moment but will but pen to paper soon.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 11, 2018, 11:24:58 AM
Yes please , get writing everyone. Whatever you want but try to make it 15mm relevant.
Title: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 11, 2018, 11:58:40 AM
This project is going so fast I cannot keep up!  Excellent.
I suggest we have aboard dedicated to the 15 Mill We could always delete it if the project fails.
If anyone wants to get started on some work here is what i suggest.
I am of course open to better methods, but tis should get us started.

1. Send it to me as an attachment  peterpig@btinternet.com and put THE 15MILL in capitals within the heading.
2. Please do it as a WORD  or RTF formatted file. Where pictures should go just put "PICTURE HERE" or similar.   Do not send in pdf as we might need to bend it around other articles and pages.
3. Send the pictures in any format as attachments. If you put them within the article it might get mashed up.
4. Do put your proper name on it unless you require anonymity, then put a cipher or similar.
5. Once the article is submitted it becomes part of the 15Mill and cannot be retracted. Amendments can of course be sent in. Being on the line the magazine can easily be updated. An article cannot be withdrawn as it messes up an edition.
6. I suggest no photos of faces with names attached. The internet is searched by some unusual persons with unusual motives.  So a group of folk with first names is good, but maybe not a listing of full names?
7. Assume, at present, that the 15Mill will be straight formatted with no columns.
8. The Editors (multiple) will have free rein to change the formatting, font etc.   But will really try hard not interfere with your work.  Maybe a comment accredited to the editor.
9. There will not be lengthy back and forward editorial meetings.
10. There is no payment or writer rights in the magazine.
11. Be careful about including any pictures that were made by someone else. They need to say yes in a proper e mail, not phone chat.
12. There is no arbitrary "level" of production.  You do it and in it goes!  Obviously watch out for offence of normal folk. But be re-assured whatever you do will offend someone.
13. No links to transitory sites such as facebook or news headlines which may disappear within 18 months. You will need to make your own judgements on this one. Not fun to read an article that sends the reader to non- existent sites.
14. Maybe we should print off a few to be put in shops etc.

14-16 don't know yet!


Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 11, 2018, 07:12:10 PM
So what is the proposed method of publishing 'The 15Mill'.

Their is very nearly enough from all the discussions on this thread all with the proposed articles, along with some pictures for an issue now!!

So the intention is 4 issues a year? With maybe an odd special edition inbetween.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on November 12, 2018, 09:22:19 AM
If it goes into shops in printed format will there be a nominal charge to cover ink and paper or just free to garner interest? Will it be colour or black and white?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 12, 2018, 09:49:17 AM
I have no idea on that one yet Duncan.  Open to suggestions.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 12, 2018, 10:34:44 AM
I plan to try and pull together a list of manufacturers of 15mm terrain (of various kinds). I'll probably post a list here in due course to check what I've missed.

Meanwhile, another idea for anyone who fancies it: how about a "Rules Spotlight" type of article? This could provide an overview of a given set of rules, figures and terrain needed, etc (similar to what Martin has posted on the PP website for the newer rules), maybe some comments on the available castings, along with rules likes / dislikes, top tactics, easy ways to get into it, etc... The advantage is that we could generate lots of material by having one article for each published set of rules, over time.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on November 12, 2018, 11:34:30 AM
This is my plan for a couple of articles....maybe on some of the older rules like Civil War Battles and Bloody Barons.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on November 12, 2018, 12:02:25 PM
This is my plan for a couple of articles....maybe on some of the older rules like Civil War Battles and Bloody Barons.

That sounds like a very good plan!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 12, 2018, 01:06:34 PM
Simon. Rules spotlight. Scenery. An excellent first article from you.
Duncan can you do an article on what is available in 15mm for fantasy? Plus an article on a particular piece of 15mm scenery you have made.
Les , wargaming in France with 15mm?
Stewart an article on something.
i have requested that Simon Lurkio sets up a board fr 15mill if he can.
i will start pushing for articles ASAP.If anyone has an idea then just  do it  please.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on November 12, 2018, 01:44:52 PM
Yes, i can look about at what is available, some i know better than others. Will see what i can come up with.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on November 12, 2018, 01:59:30 PM
I presume that although this is 15mm orientated we can also include articles about other things PP do, for example the current pirate game and associated small scale ships and the ACW small scale ships etc, or would we prefer to leave them out and just literally do 15mm for now?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 12, 2018, 04:56:57 PM
Tricky one Duncan.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 12, 2018, 05:37:45 PM
I think that it should all be the current released catalogue.

We can then just allow Martin to publish the new stuff, rules, figures, buildings as he wishes then we will not interfere with PP commercial interests.

How will the 15 Mill interface with the US and Brockhursts.
Title: This is it
Post by: martin goddard on November 12, 2018, 06:59:39 PM
A brand new board. Thank you  Simon.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 13, 2018, 03:59:28 PM
Thank you Simon for creating this new board.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on November 17, 2018, 09:00:46 AM
Dealing with the "Small Ships" this could come under "specials" in the publications, like if Duncans 6mm ECW  game was reviewed in the Magazine say, as these are covered by RFCM rules but played in other scales. Another example is when Les played PBI in 54 mm ? Its a 15mm rules set used in a slightly different way ! That way it show our mind set is not just 15MM We can Do other things !!!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on November 17, 2018, 09:43:13 AM
Good point Miles
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on November 17, 2018, 07:47:19 PM
Also Miles a quick article on sourcing bits and pieces, just by keeping your eyes open.

Particularly your industrial PBI table.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on December 02, 2018, 06:54:11 PM
https://www.facebook.com/groups/793036964069317/permalink/2158885570817776/
This image came up in the 15mm fantasy thread on facebook. I thought it kind of described many of the issues we have talked about?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 02, 2018, 07:18:47 PM
Problem with that link Duncan
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 03, 2018, 09:35:58 AM
I agree we should include fantasy 15mm too.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on December 03, 2018, 02:52:30 PM
Really! Must we? Should we also grow long hair, wear Iron Maiden T-shirts, and give up washing?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 03, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
Iron Maiden shirts are right out.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 03, 2018, 06:00:20 PM
Iron Maiden shirts are right out.

As is long hair, for many of us, sadly...
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on December 03, 2018, 09:50:30 PM
Whatever else happens please don’t overburden rules with pointless teenage hyperbole. Saga 2 has done just that as it changes from a set of Dark Age rules to a set which extends into the Middle Ages to a set which now encompasses all Ancient, Medieval and fantasy stuff, with that maddening doom-laden, blood soaked despondency oft encountered in the mystifying, yet turbulent gut-wrenching and sword cleaving realm of the ravening hordes of Gothmorlobbybottom. (0h, for god’s sake!!!)
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 04, 2018, 04:53:16 AM
Excuse Me. One half of my T shirts are Iron Maiden ! The other half being Weymouth Levellers....
Pick on the younger less significant bands that are in the charts please ! Thank you.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Smiley Miley 66 on December 04, 2018, 05:05:46 AM
But anyway. Ancients i can understand, but fantasy ? Like Sci Fi has it got a big presents in 15mm ?  I suppose they should get a mention every so often, but not  enough say for every month ! (Or Bi monthly or whenever the "Journal" is going to be published?)
Other than the likes of Hammers Slammers ( which our friend Matt Hays does a lot of) which is big in its own world, you don't see a lot around. Most of these subjects and games seemed to be more 25-28mm these days. I could be wrong ?
Medieval, Renaissance, Pirates etc, along with ACW, Western, Sudan and 20th Century  seem to be the main trains of interest at least on here.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 04, 2018, 07:02:59 AM
Peter Pig do make a fantasy range.
It’s 15mil so include it,if people want to send an article in, no guirentie it will be published.
Fantasy players may very well play historical as well
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 04, 2018, 07:29:42 AM
I have played and still do play fantasy....mainly because it's played a lot at my club. But 15mm fantasy is something I've not seen other than the occassionl HotT for which I own the Peter Pig Dwarves!
As Stewart at a if someone wishes to write an article then that's fine by me. I don't see it taking over half of the magazine which will be authored in the main by forum members and I don't see much activity in the fantasy section.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Radar on December 04, 2018, 08:05:29 AM
I've just purchased 15mm witches, werewolves, dire wolves, wraiths and vampires for Witchfinder General. Took quite some tracking down, so some 15mm fantasy info would have been really useful.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 09:05:04 AM
I think the money/space can be found for fantasy and sci fi. Not a problem fo the Mill.  We just need lots of grist.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 09:18:06 AM
Work is starting on the first quarter 2019 magazine.

There will be an editorial by someone.  I shall do the first one because........no real reason, just ego.  The editorial will promote 15mm, but not denigrate other sizes. I intend to classify the main sizes as 2/3mm,  5/6mm,  10/12mm, 15mm, 18/20mm, 25/28mm, 30mm, 40mm, 54mm and 1/6th. This in itself should start some discussion.  Within this discussion we could discuss what scales fit with 15mm. Probably 120th through to 87th.  Might even try to dispel the myth that the average man is 6ft high!

The magazine will have a moving set of aims. The overall intention is that the magazine can be "driven" by anyone, as the years and maybe i too go by.

Once the magazine 1 is out, we can then "show it around"  to give guidance to potential contributors. 
Cover price will remain as zero pence. There will be no formal advertising, but reviews can "glow". Manufacturers can even self review .

All this is quite exciting I feel.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on December 04, 2018, 09:42:30 AM
Well i have just put out feelers in the 15mm fantasy forum which as it happens is a lot more active than this one and is by invite only, (which thinking about it maybe why the link i posted did not allow access, as it lets me in fine.) to get info on suppliers and there are loads of them, admittedly some only have small ranges. I think the fantasy forum being invite only is a good thing as it keeps it reasonably civil and polices the potential teenage metalhead smelly types.
Anyway myself i have been building a large 15mm chaos Dwarf army and am loving all the conversion work and scratch building that you do not get so much of in historicals. I always wanted a Chaos Dwarf army with the big hats etc when i was a teenager butvby the time i was oldcenough to afford them GW had discontinued the range. To be able to get one now in 15mm is a real plus for me especially being able to talk to the sculptor and retailer putting forward suggestions and ideas and getting sneak peaks at what is coming in the range. These fit nicely alongside other 15mm figures, they are about 12mm without the hat so ideal, i can see them going up against my Saxons, WOR or even ECW armies as they could be themed either way.
Therefore i would like to see fantasy inc.uded as much as any other range, especially as PP makes them and nice they arecas well, especially the snail riding gnomes! We need some more poses on them though Martin, any chance?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 04, 2018, 10:11:48 AM
Is it titled '15mm Fantasy Gaming' Duncan? I've just sent a join request through under my pseudonym Bob Point (it's along story as to why I use this name but is mainly to protect myself from some of my less satisfied customers....)

Being going for 4 years with over 800 members and over 200 posts in the last 28 days. The problem with Facebook groups is that although as you say it's a closed group, there is no real vetting of new members and I've yet to see any group not have it's share of idiots who will use bulky boy tactics and demean other members. It takes a strong admin to get on top of these issues.

I'll take a look at the content and maybe even paint up my Dwarves over Christmas. Maybe I should just paint 7 of them and  find a suitable princess type figure for them to look after.

Hi Ho

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on December 04, 2018, 11:50:43 AM
I was sent an invite from Mathias at Admiralty Minatures (l think he is one of the Admin people.) as they liked my conversion stuff and the painting of the figures i got ffom him.
Still it is always good to get new members. I have to say i have not noticed anything worse going on there than what i have on this forum.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 12:06:21 PM
We need to sort out this Iron Maiden shirts thing.
Should it be a specific section or maybe  a recurring note in the magazine.
How about "I like Iron Maiden and also (name the period)".   Opens up a  whole lot of relational statements. e.g. I use a plain table top  and play mainly horse and musket.
Such dust goes well in a magazine.
Let's call it "COMMENT"
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on December 04, 2018, 01:56:43 PM
Sounds like a plan, but we may want to make it clear it is An Iron Maiden, which will be quite apt, as opposed to The Iron Maiden band, you don't want any copyright issues (I assume?) Although maybe an issue about Copyright may be something to explore In itself?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 04, 2018, 01:57:59 PM
I think it depends on what articles actually get submitted. If something of a more fantastical nature turn up that is relevant to the 15 mil crowd that's fine. Do we need a regular section for non historical items?

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
Fortunately there is no copyright consideration when discussing Iron Maiden. There, just did it. Copyright comes into play when you use their created output, images or sounds.
I have already dealt with overarching copyright matters in a much earlier post. Do see that. All is well.

A more important  legal consideration is about small companies.   Many of them trade illegally in that they do not provide a postal address and telephone number.  This is indeed  a minor point, but the lack of identifiable provenance might mean they are a "shell" for something else. Such as pirating figures or part of a bigger firm.  Should the Mill support dishonesty?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 02:16:53 PM
If it is submitted I think we should/want/must publish it. I do not think we need to make sci or fantasy any special sub genre in the same way that  ACW is not a special sub genre.  All is grist and all is welcome.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Radar on December 04, 2018, 02:23:20 PM
So when discussing fantasy you have to shoe horn Iron Maiden in to it somehow? If that's the case ECW involves ex-army boots with no laces and a dog on a bit of string, wearing Levellers/New Model Army t-shirts then?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 04, 2018, 04:17:26 PM
Just write the articles and we will try to get them in.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Duncan on December 04, 2018, 07:51:04 PM
Is it titled '15mm Fantasy Gaming' Duncan? I've just sent a join request through under my pseudonym Bob Point (it's along story as to why I use this name but is mainly to protect myself from some of my less satisfied customers....)

Sean, if it helps, (not sure it will?) I have emailed Mathias (one of the admin.) to vouch for younas a good egg. Just incase they want a reference from a current member to grant access, hope it helps you in?

Let us know what they say?

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 04, 2018, 07:55:41 PM
You are a gentleman Duncan. Thank you.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 09, 2018, 08:36:45 PM
Nice summary of the aims and guidance for The 15 Mill on the PP website, Martin!

For those that have not yet spotted it yet, please have a look here:

 http://www.peterpig.co.uk/the15MILL.html
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 09, 2018, 09:06:04 PM
Sounding excellent.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on December 10, 2018, 07:47:21 PM
The summary and aims do not say where it will be published, on line, in a blog, on the RCFM site or somewhere else?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 11, 2018, 11:39:59 AM
No problem Les. It will be available from the PP website. The intention is to put it on as a pdf. The  older ones will also stay available too.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Rittervonbek on December 11, 2018, 12:07:53 PM
Is there any way we could subscribe to the limited edition figures packs? I'd hate to miss out by being forgetful at some point. It could be called "The Millers' Model Membership"? Just a thought.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 11, 2018, 12:44:17 PM
Lovely figure pack now available on the PP website for The Duel - check out the News section!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 11, 2018, 02:35:14 PM
The limited edition gamette packs will be around for about 6 months after the "event". The rules discussion should be a reminder of how they go.  Forum members will also get some priority.  I am expecting to sell about 10 packs total.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Wardy64 on December 11, 2018, 03:13:58 PM
Well done that man. Very nice indeed.  ;D
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Stewart 46A on December 11, 2018, 04:10:08 PM
My order is in and have the Duell field printed.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Colonel Kilgore on December 11, 2018, 05:13:52 PM
The limited edition gamette packs will be around for about 6 months after the "event". The rules discussion should be a reminder of how they go.  Forum members will also get some priority.  I am expecting to sell about 10 packs total.

Could these be good for shows? You could have one game set up for folk to try, and then sell them the gamette afterwards?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on December 24, 2018, 05:29:42 PM
Just found the forum and joined, so first post.
A magazine is an exciting prospect, and all the plans sound very positive.

Ours is a diverse hobby: I sometimes looks at the variety of periods, rules and scales and wonder how anybody can find an opponent to play against.

There are essentially 2 approaches to a diverse market, and they fit rather neatly with the two types of gamer (of course there are far more types, but I have observed this particular binary divide).

The first approach is differentiation (Invent a new scale) and lock-in (You have to buy our stuff because we built a monopoly).
It requires a big marketing beast to pull it off, and maintain a lead against the nevitable bandwagon jumpers who start producing compatible gear.
I think we know the companies and scales involved here.
Within wargaming this model does suit the habits of the one-stop shopper.
People who have grown accustomed to getting all their stuff; figures, paints, rules, dice, tape-measures from a single source.
They don't instinctively shop around, and tend to suck up price hikes.

The second approach is to embrace standards and compatibility - we can all plug our computers into the internet because of this approach.
It's the way to go in a market of many similar sized players, or where several businesses will collaborate to deliver a service.
This seems the way of the 15mm market - lots of suppliers, none dominant, but a fair number providing products that will mix happily.
The wargamer who buys in this market tends to be a DIYer, willing to mix and match, shop around, resourceful (and probably a difficult customer).

I'll add that there's a generational trend, with the older gamers more likely to be the DIYer - because back in the day your Roman cavalry were actuyally Cuirassiers converted with a bit of plasticene, banana oil and a dressmakers pin.
The younger generation often entered the hobby when the one stop shop was not only established, but it existed in bricks and mortar on their high-street.


Most of you are wondering "Where's he going with this".

 * Is it possible or desirable to break out beyond the older DIYer market in some way?
 * Can a magazine help?

I've witnessed the efforts of Pendraken and Baccus (Honourable mentions of both earlier in the thread) to present a unified picture for their scales.

Pendraken are a market leader in 10mm, have extensive ranges and will sell you glue, brushes, scenery and even tongue depressors form an impressibe shop at many shows.
They probably come closest to the "Nottingham model of 1 stop shop" - but it looks like bloody hard work - decades of giving 110%.

Baccus with their "joy of six" have a model that I think will work better for 15mm.
Some effort to coordinate the various 6mm suppliers (I fear there is little figure compatibility between manufacturers, but certain synergies still exist).


Building form that, here are some ideas for 15 Mill.

 * Sell the idea that "other scales are available" to the one-stop shop chunk of the hobby.

   That could be something like a focus on something they'll like (usually Goblinz or Tanks) with examples of usable product ranges.
   It may also involve "Scaling (something)" for 15mm.
   If you can show the Bolt Action fans a table with several tanks on each side, they might be impressed.

 * Already mentioned, nothing worse than going crusading "28mm is WRONG - see the error of your ways kids" won't impress anybody.
    Pete form Baccus does this in a tongue in cheek way that I find funny, but t's so easy to get it wrong, and deter potential customers.

   Keep positive, but stress the strengths of 15mm for certain situations.

 * Don't assume that Fanboys have closed minds, but they do get confused by concepts that grognards take for granted.

    For example "This French battalion is presented on a 20:1 troop ratio, the real thing would have 720 soldiers".
    I've seen heads "asplode" at that thought.
 
 * I think the way to reach the 1 stop shoppers is through very basic scenarios, and presenting a set of "triples".

    You want to do Saving Private Ryan / Fury / Troy / Gladiator - Here are the:
       1: Miniatures
       2: Rules
       3: Scenario


Well that turned out a lot longer, and far more rambling than I first intended.
Good luck with the magazine.
Merry Christmas
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on December 24, 2018, 06:02:56 PM
Thanks for joining  and thanks for giving your thoughts Steve.  Edition 1 is  trail blazer to establish a presence. Then the future is fairly open. The trick i think, is to keep the magazine  going after the initial couple of issues.  Luckily the magazine can expand and contract as we wish.  The other main thrust is that the magazine should reflect "normal (?)" gamers and their stuff.  First edition will be a  bit "piggy", due to the contacts that are found here on this noble forum !
One aim is to get makers to define as "15mm" and thus help prevent/cure  the splintering caused by 18mm etc.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on December 24, 2018, 11:23:41 PM
Agree with the comments. Although content will inevitably be Piggie to start there is room to extole the virtues of the wider 15mm hobby. It can point towards other manufacturers who do ranges that Peter Pig don't do for instance.

My forthcoming scenarios will be based on Piggie rules and Piggie figures but scenery will be considered from the likes of S&A plus others that I know Simon will have included in his piece.

Exciting times.

Merry Christmas
Sean
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on December 25, 2018, 10:10:54 AM
Thanks for the welcome, and apologies for the length of that first braindump.

I agree completely that maintaining momentum after the rush of the first edition is the hard bit.
That's been my experience in various types of newsletter / fanzine etc.

I suppose the main take-away from my long ramble is that I see a cultural split between the DIY "Grognard" and the one-stop "Fanboy".
Companies that cater to the grognard have typically struggled to reach across to the other potentially lucrative audience.

The magazine is the first start - but it helps to talk to them in terms of "complete offerings".
I think 15mm can do that: Peter Pig, for example have rules, figures, battlepacks and accessories.
I also think that the deep strength of 15mm lies in the number of suppliers and the variety that brings.

Merry Christmas everybody.

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Big Mike on January 12, 2019, 05:20:59 PM
Martin,
Just read the new Mag, excellent production values and content. Well done all concerned.
Michael
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Smoking gun on January 14, 2019, 01:10:09 PM
I enjoyed the first edition of 15mm, some very inspirational stuff in there and I'm looking forward to the next issue.

Thank you,

Martin
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Big Mike on February 28, 2019, 04:45:29 PM
Martin,
I am looking forward to the next edition and plan to have an article and photos on the Gold Beach game for the next one. Do you have a deadline date for copy as yet?

Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on February 28, 2019, 04:46:52 PM
Better put my eye on that Mike!  Middle March?? Can you do a Dutch article too?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on February 28, 2019, 08:51:40 PM
I should be able to put something together on the start of my 15mm French Great Italian Wars army, featuring a couple of Peter Pig Italian Wars guns and crews (now there’s something you don’t see everyday).

Incidentally, what is the best way to send an article, including photos?
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on March 01, 2019, 09:20:13 AM
Good news Andy

May i suggest email it to  peterpig@btinternet.com  with pictures as attachments. I have a large postbox.

thanks
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on March 01, 2019, 02:23:41 PM
Will do.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Sean Clark on March 03, 2019, 09:07:41 AM
Do we have a deadline for issue 2?

A bit like Bamber Gascoigne....Ive started but not finished.
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on March 03, 2019, 10:14:07 AM
Middlemarch be OK
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leslie BT on March 03, 2019, 10:17:05 AM
Are we adding instalments of the novel by George Eliot as well!!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on March 03, 2019, 02:38:58 PM
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: martin goddard on March 03, 2019, 07:50:52 PM
Good spot there Les!!
Title: Re: The 15 Mill
Post by: Leman on March 04, 2019, 10:36:36 AM
Camp, guns and crew completed. Just waiting for artillery detritus from Donnington to complete the artillery bases.